As far as the major religions go, Buddhism has a pretty good reputation. In general, we don’t go around embarrassing ourselves in public on a major scale. You’ve never seen stories about pedophile Buddhist monks, nor are we associated with terrorism in people’s minds. We don’t have any problems with evolution and seem to be pretty chill with the whole gay marriage thing. Our panties don’t tend to get into a twist about other people’s very personal choices. Overall, we don’t tend to make a big fuss or even statements about political matters. And hell, and the most famous Buddhist in the world is a beloved public figure with a great laugh, twinkly eyes and a Nobel Peace Prize under his robes, to boot.
So, when the whole issue of Tibet comes up, the Dalai Lama and the Tibet supporters tend to get a very sympathetic hearing. Even people who don’t understand the whole history of the issue tend to come down on the side of Tibet simply because the picture in their minds of the Dalai Lama and Buddhist monks and nuns is that of peace and compassion. This positive image is a huge weapon in the arsenal of the pro-Tibet camp.
Oh? What’s this? Why are these Buddhist monks and nuns protesting the Dalai Lama? Oh lordy, lordy, it’s Tibetan Buddhism’s dirty laundry getting strung up for all the world to see. It’s the Dorje Shudgden controversy rearing its ugly head again.
The controversy is quite complex and there are plenty of resources on the web on both sides if you really want to dig deep. (Also for further information about the NKT that is free from the NKT PR machine, please see go here) However, here’s a thumbnail sketch from my perspective: Years ago, Geshe Kelsang Gyatso (aka Geshe-la) who is the founder of the New Kadampa Tradition got into a rift with the Dalai Lama over a dharma protector/demon (depending on your view) named Dorje Shugden. My feeble understanding is that the Dalai Lama views Dorje Shugden as a demon who is out to harm the Dalai Lama as well as the future of Tibet. In 1996 he asked his followers to no longer engage in any practices worshipping/propitiating to Dorje Shugden. To do so would be to go against His Holiness’ well being as well as the Tibetan cause. Geshe-la, on the other hand, views Dorje Shugden to be an integral part of the lineage that both he and the Dalai Lama share. In fact, to NOT do Dorje Shugden practice would be going against their teacher Trijang Rimpoche. In Tibet, after the ban, reports say that Dorje Shugden practitioners were being oppressed and harassed. The conflict gets ugly and people on both sides are harmed, and even murdered. Geshe-la joins the fight on the side of the Shugden practitioners and calls for his students in the NKT to protest the Dalai Lama outside his speaking engagements in the States and Europe. The reputation of the NKT got pretty tarnished. Geshe-la eventually gave up the cause publicly. The NKT continued to practice Shugden. Outside certain Tibetan Buddhist circles no one really cared.
Apparently, because there has been recent activity against Shugden practitioners in Tibet, the NKT is once again taking up the picket line against the Dalai Lama. When I first heard this, I shook my head in dismay. While my NKT days are now behind me, I still have good friends who study and practice within the NKT. These may be very confusing times for them. I remember when I was asked to participate in the protests of a decade ago. Here I was this relatively new practitioner, and being offered a free trip to New York City. New York City!? I love New York! Oh, if I accept the free trip, I have to participate in the protest against the Dalai Lama . . . uh . . . um . . . no, no thank you. The issue made me uncomfortable then, and it makes me uncomfortable now.
I don’t know who is wrong or who is right, or if there is even a wrong or a right in the matter. If the Dalai Lama is truly oppressing the people who wish to practice Shugden, that is wrong. Right? I mean, most people would agree that religious intolerance is wrong, and when we see it happening, good hearted people should stand up for the oppressed. Yet, doesn’t the Dalai Lama, as the spiritual leader of most of Tibetan Buddhism, have a right to change doctrine? But, what about his role as the political leader of Tibet? Can you truly have both a political and spiritual leader without advocating a theocracy? Tibet is really the only country I know where people long for the old days of the theocracy.
I guess my real problem is the timing of these protests. With the Beijing Olympics putting the Tibet issue on the front page, how messed up is it that a splinter group comes and tries to move the spotlight into this little known corner of Tibetan infighting. I mean, come on . . . Also, the NKT, as an organization seems to be going through some turbulent times and people’s faith is really being put to the test. Who knows, maybe that is the point. Maybe the point is shake people out of their comfort zone, to strip them of their attachment to good reputation and to test if they truly have reliance upon their spiritual guide. I don’t understand it. I’m really hoping that the reasons behind the protests do have to do with religious freedom and justice, and not anger or power or wanting to suck up to the Chinese government.
I’m glad this is not my battle. I don’t want to fight. All I can do is pray: may everyone be happy, and may everyone be free from misery.
626 responses so far ↓
monkeys ~ not just for people anymore // April 26, 2008 at 4:30 pm |
yeah baby under my robes ! ! ! ~ I got yer Noble Prize for ya right here. we couldn’t ask for a better PR nightmare and isn’t it delightful?
Is it supposed to hurt when i leave my come fort zone? I don’t think mere mortals are ever gonna make sense outa this mess ~ so then it seams to me it all comes down to how messy do ya wanna get?
Ron // April 26, 2008 at 5:04 pm |
Yes
I was among the horrified when I heard the news of planned demos. I declared to the world that this may be the end of my road with the NKT. However, I’ve revised my thoughts. I’m turning around. I’m certainly not getting involved. I’ll be watching this at a distance. It’s not my fight either. I don’t even practice Shugden. But I’m beginning to suspect that there is a test in this for me, and it’s clear that there is an opportunity for real reflection and growth in what is an immense and complex spiritual dilemma. It’s a weird fence to be sitting on, and I guess part of the reason I feel comfortable on it is that, as I white anti-apartheid orientated South African, I was brandished a pariah my whole life, despite my best intentions and my very best efforts. Most of my life I grew up in a war zone and felt like none of it was my fight either. It feels like much the same situation now. There is strength to be found in these circumstances. I’ll be watching with interest and will withhold my verdict for now.
Ron // April 26, 2008 at 6:57 pm |
One comment I should have made (why do I always forget something?!!!). Personally, I was never opposed to this action because I supported the Dalai Lama. I believe the Dalai Lama is wrong on this. Completely.
Nicole // April 27, 2008 at 2:43 am |
This is shocking, an immeasurable disgrace. This is damning evidence to me that dholgyal supporters (predominantly the NKT) are supported by the Chinese Communist Party to continue this practice. Why become so vocal now, when the Dalai Lama is working desperately for peace in Tibet. If only to try and divert the attention from the horrific practices of the Chinese government.
I too will be praying, (not so) Lazy Buddhist.
Ron // April 27, 2008 at 3:03 pm |
Then again, things might just nastier and nastier, as I first suspected they would. It’s going to take a while before the consequences of this become evident, or before we’re able to process it properly.
a protestor // April 27, 2008 at 6:36 pm |
I was at the protest in the linked picture, and happily so. I can assure you of a few things:
(1) There is no connection to the Chinese government or to the Olympics. There has been an escalation of anti-Shugden persecution since January of this year, so the timing is coincidental.
(2) The protests are not sponsored by the NKT. They are sponsored by the Western Shugden Society, which includes both NKT practitioners and Shugden practitioners from outside the NKT. At the protest on the 22nd, there were about 100 Tibetans who practice Dorje Shugden. I found it very moving to stand up in support of their religious freedom.
If this were just a case of a religious leader telling people not to engage in a certain practice, that would not be such a big deal. But, this is a government persecuting people for practicing their tradition. Tibetans are now being required to to take an oath not to practice Shugden and not to share material resources — even food– with those who do. Shugden practitioners are being denied identity cards, which are necessary for them to buy food. Mothers are being told they must cut all contact with their sons. These are not Buddhist policies, and I am very happy to stand against them.
I think anyone who knows what is being done to Shugden practitioners in the Tibetan exile community will be outraged. If the Dalai Lama wants to tell people not to practice it, that’s fine, but he should not oppress those who disagree.
I would also like to say that the general spirit of the protest was refreshingly free of anger. I personally wasn’t sure if I could shout slogans and hold signs without stirring up anger inside, but what I found was that I was protesting non-virtue and harmfulness. This is not personal, and it is not fueled by hatred — it is a compassionate action to stop an injustice.
monkeys ~ not just for people anymore // April 27, 2008 at 7:36 pm |
well . . axtually ~ some protests are being organized by the NKT. This is a test and is only test – if this were an actual emergency we’d all be vaporized by now or caught up in the rapture = may be the same thing?
people are suffering and we are helpless
monkeys ~ not just for people anymore // April 27, 2008 at 7:37 pm |
oh yeah, and what I should have said wuz ~ therez no laundry like dirty laundry = srub a dub dub
a protestor // April 27, 2008 at 8:06 pm |
to monkeys:
there are no protests being organized by the NKT, but perhaps you will think I am splitting hairs. Members of the NKT definitely support the protests, and communication is happening among NKT Center managers and so on about where they will be, how to get there, etc. And the WSS is providing transportation some of the time. Individual NKT practitioners are free to make their own decisions.
Along those lines I would like to add that at the first protest the organizers urged us not to judge others on how much they participated. There was no pressure that I could detect.
deneb7 // April 27, 2008 at 8:14 pm |
I don’t understand… how does a government in exile have the authority over who gets identity cards? Does the government-in-exile have any legal authority in a foreign country?
Cheyenne // April 28, 2008 at 1:18 pm |
Hon’ble mrs. Justice G. Mittal
In the High Court of Delhi at New Delhi Extraordinary civil original jurisdiction civil writ petition no. 2222/08
Petitioner: Dorje Shugden devotees charitable & religious society
Respondents: UOI (Union of India) the cabinet secy
To: Tenzin Gyatso also known as the 14th Dalai Lama
Thekchen Cheoling po McLeod Ganj, Dharamsala H.P.
Whereas the petitioner above mentioned has presented a petition under articles 226 & 227 of the constitution of India.
And whereas the said petition came up for motion hearing on 8-4-08 This court both order that show cause notice of admission be issued to the respondent for 12-5-08 why the petition be not admitted, show cause notice is hereby given to you that the case will be laid before the registrar 12-5-08 for admission.
You are hereby directed to appear before this registrar on the 12th day of may 2008 at 10.30 A.M. personally or through duly authorised advocate of this court to show cause against admission of the writ petition, failing which the case will be decided in your absence.
Given under my hand and the seal of the High Court of Delhi is the 11th day of april 2008-04-25
Note: Copy of CMP and CWP enclosed
CMP 5543,4260/08 shall also be heard of the above mentioned date.
Signed: Administrative Officer for Registrar
Sealed: the seal of the High Court of Delhi.
P.S.:
The same petition is also sent to:
The Tibetan Governement in Exile, office of the Central Tibetan Administration through Kalon Tripa, Samdhong Rimpoche, Dharamsala
The state of Himachal Pradesh (A) through the chief secretary, secretariat bldg, Simla, Himachal Pradesh
The state of Himachal Pradesh (B) through the resident commisioner, Himachal Bhavan, SP Marg, New Delhi
Cheyenne // April 28, 2008 at 1:27 pm |
Dorje Shugden Charitable & Religious Society
Press Release, New Delhi, April 28, 2008
At the time when Tibet is going through one of its most difficult times in history, to be compelled to speak about Tibetan internal problems we find most disheartening. If the problem were a minor one, certainly the right thing would be to down-play and ignore it.
However, the difficulty we face, is neither simple nor limited to just a small number of individuals. Rather, it has affected the lives of countless Tibetans, both in exile and in Tibet. In short, our problem is a most serious religious prosecution with violation of basic human rights – a situation without precedent in all of Tibetan history and irrational to such a point that it can hardly be grasped by any sensible person of this world.
To give a better understanding of the unimaginable scope of the present situation among the Tibetan people, let us try with this analogy:
If H.H. the Pope would denounce one particular saint out of the many widely venerated saints of the Catholic church, such a step would certainly become an issue. However, if H.H. the pope would then declare that saint an evil spirit, with the reasoning that the veneration of that specific saint is harmful for his own life as well as for the political freedom of Italy, the issue would become ridiculous. On top of that, if the Italian government would then implement the pope’s antipathy for that saint in government policies, forcing all Italians to testify their abandonment of that saint in public swearings, and forcing them to publicly sign that they will no longer maintain any spiritual or material relation to anyone not obeying the pope’s decree, then the honest people of this world would certainly rise upon such an outrageous act – but just that is our case.
This present situation has its roots in the late 1970ies, when H.H. Dalai Lama increasingly succumbed to the influence of ill-intending advisors, such as the the so-called ’state oracle’ and other policy-makers in the exile government. These people have managed to change H.H. Dalai Lama’s attitude towards one specific deity out of many hundreds of similar ones respected in Tibetan Buddhism. Hundred thousands of Tibetans have relied on this deity called Dorje Shugden for many generations, among them many extraordinary personalities of outstanding service to the Tibetan people, including the Dalai Lama’s own personal guru Kyabje Trijang Dorje Chang, his lord chamberlain who organised the safe escape to India, his body guards and many Khampa freedom fighters giving their lives for the safety of His Holiness.
After initial critics against the deity by the state oracle and His Holiness in 1978 the subsequent allegations worsened year by year. In spring 1996 His Holiness made his first public denouncement of the deity in Dharamsala during spring teachings, with the words: “If you people want me to be damned and do not care about Tibetan freedom, you go ahead worshipping that evil spirit.”
These words have been followed by tremendous turmoil in the exile Tibetan community up to this day. The Tibetan exile government implemented His Holiness’ personal dislike for the deity as a government policy and started to wage a world-wide campaign against the deity and each and every individual connected to it.
Thanks to the generosity and protection of the government and the people of India, Tibetans have enjoyed decades of harmonious life in exile, rebuilding their monasteries and following their studies and religious activities in peace and security. Under the continued pressure of the exile government, that peace and harmony were quickly destroyed and a tremendous schism throughout Tibetan society created.
Many times signature campaigns for the abandonment of every practice linked with this deity have been conducted, which lead to some individuals complying as a result of their respect as well as their fear of upsetting the Dalai Lama. Others expressed their sincere dilemma to choose between His Holiness and ones own religious faith and practice, comparing such a choice to the unacceptable obligation to choose by signature between ones father and ones mother and thus declined their signature. Whoever declined to abandon the deity was looked upon as traitor. Such proceeding automatically created heavy divisions in the Tibetan community in exile, and under all kind of pretexts the exile Tibetan government made strongest effort to transport this mysterious campaign to the Tibetan homeland, thus causing the unfortunate schism to spread in Tibet as well.
The worsening situation led to the necessity to organise ourselves, this way the Dorje Shugden society has been founded in 1998. Since its founding, our organisation has tried every reasonable method to solve this problem, like submitting appeals to H.H. Dalai Lama, to our religious department, to religious and political dignitaries – requesting understanding, a compassionate regard to our situation, and petitioning to let us continue our own religious practice as our masters and forefathers have done. All these attempts have been dismissed with harsh rejection. Instead, pressure and restrictions imposed by His Holiness and the exile government were continuously increased, up to the point where the deity now-a-days is publicly denounced as a Chinese demon and all its adherents accused of being Chinese spies and collaborators.
Particularly this January have His Holiness and Samdong Lama, prime minister of exile Tibet, publicly and vehemently called the public opinion to rise against followers of Dorje Shugden. Again public signature and swearing campaigns in and out of the monasteries were held to make everybody swear not only to abandon every link to the deity but also to abandon any spiritual and material link of any kind with any adherent of Dorje Shugden.
As a result, the monastic community was forced to separate, breaking all their links of studying and praying together. Likewise, also on the worldly level, any social link such as eating together or living together or making business together have been forbidden. Some organisations are even urging that every adherent of Dorje Shugden should be expelled from India. Children of practitioners are harassed in schools and even some shops carry signs stating that Shugden practitioners are not allowed to enter.
This way we have been classified and discriminated as total outcasts to our Tibetan society. Such a most unbelievable situation has become true and an unfortunate reality for us in everyday life.
With our limited means we have approached the government of India as well as some international organisations, but due to the paramount reputation of H.H. Dalai Lama and the inconceivableness of the issue little attention has been received until now. Therefore we have taken the opportunity of the present situation, where the attention of the world is focused on Tibet, to make this problem known to the world, especially to the government and the people of India, who are our sole hope, refuge, and source of protection. We ask the genuine attention of the honest people of the world as witness.
As long as there is disregard and violation of human rights and religious freedom within our own community by our own leaders, there is no solving of the Tibetan problem on the international level.
It is also important to note that all those persons, who have venerated the deity Dorje Shugden in the past and do so at present, do not belong to any strange sect and have never been an organised formation. If the veneration of protecting deities besides Lord Buddha, who is the central and supreme object of refuge for all Buddhists, would classify a person to be a follower of a sect, then all Tibetan Buddhists will fall in such a category, because the adherents of all four Tibetan traditions, including H.H. Dalai Lama, commonly venerate a multitude of protecting deities.
We would also like to state, that we do not pursue any political aims, that we neither support the Chinese policy towards Tibet, nor any impairing of the Olympic games 2008.
For further details please take a look at our website:
www. shugdensociety.info
Ron // April 28, 2008 at 3:16 pm |
Peaceful protest is not an immeasurable disgrace anywhere in the free world. We do not live in pre-war Germany. I too would condemn the timing of this if there had been any sign that these alleged injustices would be addressed without this kind of pressure. There has been none in the last decade and supporters of “dholghal” (a derogatory word intended to stigmatise these practitioners) have been targeted relentlessy. Both in Tibet and in the West. If the Dalai Lama and his supporters are in fact guilty of discrimination and, indeed, responsible for the persecution of a select group of Buddhists, surely people and governments in the West should know before they give a mandate to them to represent anybody’s human rights. If the allegations are fabricated, the Dalai Lama has nothing to fear, does he?
Stevo // April 28, 2008 at 5:46 pm |
Anything “bad” coming from the Dalai Lama does not surprise me. He wasn’t overly concerned about changing the feudal state of Tibet (ie. slavery) while he was in power. The man, while inspiring, does have two faces, like everyone else.
Stevo // April 28, 2008 at 5:47 pm |
and, thank you for this post LB. It’s good to see something neutral and unbiased written about Tibet.
LazyBuddhist // April 29, 2008 at 11:11 am |
Thanks, Stevo. Interesting thing is, this debate isn’t even about Tibet, per se, but is rather a conflict in the Tibetan exile community in India.
It is not my point here to say who is right or wrong. The Shugden practitioners in the Tibetan exile community probably do have a legitimate beef with the Dalai Lama. When an edict is issued by your spiritual leader that can be heavy enough, but when that spiritual leaader is also your political leader and has the power to enforce it, well . . . Just as I believe people have a right to protest when they disagree with their government, I believe the Shudgenites do have the right to speak out. However, I also believe that some wisdom needs to be exercised. If they protest and discredit the DL, how will that impact their brethren back in their former homeland of Tibet? We can’t fix everything, at least at one time, so perhaps there has to be a compromise for the greater good.
My main point has to do with what the heck the NKT is doing getting involved in this again. I recall very clearly at the 2006 US Fall Festival, that Geshe-la told (and Samden hammered home the point) that we should not get involved in politics. Our job as Buddhists was to pray. Of course, this got interpreted in all kinds of ways. Some, that I heard, fell into the extreme camp of thinking that we should not even vote. Me, I heard it as we shouldn’t be putting our names to political causes – no Buddhists for Obama stickers on the ol’ bumper.
There are plenty of injustices in the world, and as NKT-ers, we were never encouraged to engaged in compassionate political actions. Yet, here with the Shugden issue, leaders with the NKT are out there with bullhorns and raised fists (and yes, I know they were not there under the banner of the NKT, but rather the Western Shugden Society. But all legal, tax or PR fronts aside, it is the NKT that is at the forefront here). Why is it OK to protest this internal Tibetan community-in-exile political issue, but not other political issues. This Shugden ban on no direct impact on NKT practitioners. The NKT does not consider itself part of the Tibetan Buddhist community – in fact has made a point of identifying itself as Western tradition.
Anyway, once again I have lost my original point. What else is new? I promise I’ll get back to discussing my mundane life with cats and rabbits soon enough.
monkeys ~ not just for people anymore // April 29, 2008 at 11:30 am |
well LB eye m purty sure this rises above the level of poly tics free tie bet etc. however pro tester the NKT is part of the Western Shugdan Society and Geshe Kelsang is personally directing his closest assistants to org agonize at least sum if not all of these events.
eye m also purty sure that neither of the above is the impotent poynt LB’s intentions a side. clearly (orr knot) there is something more subtle going on that challenges believers and non a like ~ witness the passion in the posts above
my main poynt iz after the laundry is done will my sox match?
monkeys ~ not just for people anymore // April 29, 2008 at 11:38 am |
to LB:
“Anyway, once again I have lost my original point. What else is new?”
Actually I think you have a very great way of staying ‘on point’ which is why this blog is so attractive ~
monkeys ~ not just for people anymore // April 29, 2008 at 11:40 am |
an eye just wanna be the 19th poster
LB: Naughty monkey! No more posts for you!
Ron // April 29, 2008 at 4:07 pm |
Hi LB
I understand, it’s not your fight and you find it difficult to sympathise. But to attempt to answer your question quickly. Why does the NKT not support the SPCA, Greenpeace, the Society for Retarted Chimpanzees or the downtrodden masses in Zimbabwe? The answer: because it’s a buddhist organisation. It doesn’t believe in the idea that it can alleviate samsaric suffering by fighting the good samsaric fight. The only way to free yourself from suffering is to liberate yourself from Samsara. So why are they supporting this cause? Because the ban on Dorje Shugden is a direct threat to the lineage passed down from Trijang Rinpoche. When the Dalai Lama broke his commitments to his guru on Dorje Shugden, he broke the lineage. Only those who’ve upheld those commitments still hold the lineage. That is, only people like GKG, and the others that are continuing the practice in secret. Maintaining the lineage is a life and death matter in Buddhism, as it serves to transmit blessings from guru to disciple, going back for the last two and a half thousand years, all the way back to Buddha Shakyamuni. They fear the lineage is being destroyed, which would be a disaster, not just for those practicing in the lineage, but – if you follow the logic – for all living beings. This is a religious issue, as well as a human rights issue. It’s about religious freedom and protecting the dharma that has been passed down as much as it is about human rights. It’s unlikely to get a lot of sympathy because most people will continue to look at the issue in simplistic terms, and the Dalai Lama seems like such a friendly chap. However, I do get it. I have made an effort to educate myself on the implications. I do sympathise.
Captain Pugwash // April 30, 2008 at 2:49 am |
Lets get one thing straight. The WSS (Western Shugden Society) is the NKT. Ok so they have got some Tibetan Shugden supporters with them. If you go to their web site you will see that Kelsang Khyenrab – the Deputy Spiritual Director – of the NKT with megaphone in hand. Pretty stupid if you are maintaining that those NKT members are there as a non organised coalition. I have friends who live in NKT centres and they have all confirmed that NKT residents teachers are encouraging members to protest against the Dalai Lama. They are organising protests when he comes to the UK in Nottingham later this year. It’s official (in a completely unofficial ‘it’s not the NKT doing this’ kind of way)
Those Tibetan monks living in India – who paid for you to protest in the US. For those attending NKT centres – who is paying for Khyenrab et al to fly to the US to protest? (sorry peacfully campaign).
Why do I write this? Well people in glass houses ….. THe NKT don’t practice religious freedom in their own centres. Anyone who disagrees is asked to leave. Funny that. So get your own house in order. Think of the welfare of all Tibetans at a such a sensitive time like this.
For an alternative view of the NKT – by ex NKT members – go to Yahoo groups/Newkadampasurvivors
deneb7 // May 1, 2008 at 12:00 am |
I’m disappointed that “a protester” only decided to answer monkey and not my direct questions.
So here it is again in case someone feels inclined to satisfy my curiosity:
“I don’t understand… how does a government in exile have the authority over who gets identity cards? Does the government-in-exile have any legal authority in a foreign country?”
Chris // May 1, 2008 at 7:26 am |
“Those Tibetan monks living in India – who paid for you to protest in the US. For those attending NKT centres – who is paying for Khyenrab et al to fly to the US to protest? (sorry peacfully campaign).”
Of course the NKT is using its resources to support the protests, that much is obvious. This is going to be interesting to see if the Tibetan Geshes and Rinpoches will support the protests, since many of them have different citizenship now, they are much less under the Dalai Lama’s control.
————————————–
“I don’t understand… how does a government in exile have the authority over who gets identity cards? Does the government-in-exile have any legal authority in a foreign country?”
The WSS (Western Shugden Society) website claims that Tibetan’s have been requested not to apply for Indian citizenship by the GIE (government-in-exile). If this is the case, then indeed, the GIE maintains a firm control on all Tibetan refugees. If you check the video, the English nun states quite clearly that Dorje Shugden practitioners are being denied ID, she seems to be very convinced of it and asks that the world’s press goes and investigates for themselves. If she is correct, then NKT or not, I’m with the protesters.
Captain Pugwash // May 1, 2008 at 3:39 pm |
Who knows what the truth is in all of this. Time will tell. I suspect that the Shugden issue (religious freedom) is not the real issue. If you look into Tibetan history – this sort of carry on is nothing new. It is a Tibetan issue.
The big question for me is this….. Why are Kelsang Gyatso /NKT getting involved (again)? The NKT proclaims not to be a Tibetan Buddhist organisation. It is a Western Buddhist organisation. Its right to practice Shugden is not threatened by the Dalai Lama. It is within its power to establish a monastery in India where Tibetan Shugden supporters could practice freely. Then – no problem. The NKt’s ‘pure’ lineage is not under threat. The Dalai Lama is exercising his right to control those monasteries under his jurisdiction just as Kelsang Gyatso does in his dharma centres.
I do not support the denial of religious freedom whatsoever. What we see here is that great mix of spirituality and politics all mixed together. What I object to is the pretence that it is not. I will finish with an extract from a letter from Kelsang Gyatso, written when the NKT began their protest against the Dalai Lama in 1996 – the only difference being that then the NKT didn’t hide behind the WSS. Truth or lies – you decide.
‘After the third demonstration, I strongly requested the members of the Shugden Supporters Community to stop all political activity immediately. Because I understood that HH would not accept, there was no meaning in continuing. I requested the people in Dharma Centers to forget all these politics and concentrate solely on their Dharma practice. In this way our activity lasted from May until July, only three months. This was my first experience of politics in this life. I pray that this will never happen again in the future.
During the second demonstration in Switzerland, in support of the Shugden Supporters Community, I also wrote a letter commenting on the activities of HH. My motivation was solely to help Tibetan people and to protect Je Tsongkhapas doctrine from degenerating. However, my letter upset many
Tibetan people and many Western practitioners who regard HH as their rootGuru. I would like to apologize sincerely to all of them’.
Ron // May 1, 2008 at 5:53 pm |
Hi Captain Pugwash
The action 10 years ago was a PR disaster for the NKT when GKG made his statement about regretting conducting demonstrations. It was the single biggest setback the NKT has ever had and the negative reputation the NKT has today owes a lot to that action. The isolation of the NKT and its current pariah status owe a lot to all of this. So of course GKG regretted it. But remember, those demonstations took place against the backdrop of the Dalai Lama having relatively recently received a Nobel Peace Prize. How could such a being be supporting these alleged atrocities, many people thought. The world view of Tibetan buddhism was more rose-coloured back then. Today, more people are aware of the irregularities in Tibetan politics, and of other problems associated with the Dalai Lama’s authority, including political travesties such as the dispute over who the real Karmapa is (another clearly politically expedient action by the Dalai Lama in the name of religion; do read up about this if you’re unfamiliar with it. It really is a bit of a farce).
I didn’t support these latest demonstrations when I first heard about them. I am not involving myself in them now. But it has given me pause to reflect on a few things: 1) In the 10 years since those demonstrations were conducted, there has been no healing of the rift and, more significantly, no moderation in the DL’s position on Dorje Shugden. According to some reports, discrimination persists and has intensified. So GKG not doing anything in the last 10 years has not been that positive. Not doing anything is not alleviating the suffering of those being persecuted; 2) This is not really a political issue for Shugdenites. It is a religious issue. It is the Dalai Lama’s position on this that has made it a political issue. It has always been a political issue for the Dalai Lama. There is clearly political expedience in his actions – he has even stated that his intention is to unite Tibetans and he perceives the worship of this deity to be an obstacle to that. It is his failing as both a political and spiritual leader that he cannot find a way to unite the schools of Tibetan buddhism without resorting to the persecution of some of the worshippers. This is poor leadership at best; at worst it’s a major infringement of the human rights of millions of people; 3) The consequences in Buddhism of forcing people to abandon their commitments are horrendous. It doesn’t matter if the lineage is technically safeguarded by the existence of the NKT or not. The Dalai Lama’s position seems to be forcing people to abandon their commitments to the guru. This is a very serious matter of religious freedeom, and is forcing people to break their commitments to the lineage. This may be a paltry matter to you, but to millions of people, it means they will be taking rebirth in hell. If the Dalai Lama doesn’t want to practice Shugden, fine. But coercing others to abandon it is entirely unacceptable, unless of course you happen to think that this god-king is infallible, which I don’t.
In short, it’s clear GKG’s position has changed recently. Hey, what’s the NKT got to lose now? The fact that nothing has changed after 10 years of discrimination is indeed cause for alarm, and Shugdenites are worse off than ever. I too am a little perturbed by the timing, but really, it don’t excuse the Dalai Lama for these abuses, and he needs to be as accountable as any other political leader. It wouldn’t be condoned if he was anyone else. Moreover, since when is it a sin to change one’s mind? Conditions change, and so should be one’s responses to them. GKG is no exception. Imagine how wrong you would seem today if you were judged against things you’d said 10 years ago.
So the argurments you’ve forwarded above don’t make sense. I hope people have the common sense to recognise that.
Captain Pugwash // May 2, 2008 at 2:51 am |
Ron. This repetition of ‘millions of people being forced to abandon their Guru’. Are you saying that the majority of Tibetan Buddhists are Shugden practitioners?
My quoting Kelsang Gyatso was all about showing his intention – concerning not mixing religion and politics. Surely intention is everything in Buddhism. Yesterday i decided to help others. Today I changed my mind. Nothing wrong with that then?
What arguments did i put forward? I do not see an argument. Therefore there is nothing that does not make sense. I am simply stating that GKG/NKT are getting involved in politics again. That’s all. Did i say it was wrong of GKG to change his mind? No. Simply that he had.
Funny how you don’t address the issue of why the NKT cannot do something practical and build a monastery for Shugden practitioners. Surely better than another Dharma Hotel, World Peace Cafe. Maybe they can appoint a few Tibetans as Resident teachers in the UK. Lama Yeshe requested GKG to come to Manjushri. No difference then. They need all the experience they can get.
Are you not just Ron but Ron Harvey who is infamous for his balanced debates on Buddhachat.
Apologies if you are not but the style is strikingly similar.
Captain Pugwash // May 2, 2008 at 2:57 am |
Another thing Ron. Follow the link below. Look at comment 104 from Tenzin.
http://www.uticaod.com/news/x170774178
Ron // May 2, 2008 at 6:39 pm |
No, mate.
I’m not Ron Harvey. I’m Ron Anderson. I live in Australia. I don’t know Ron Harvey from Adam. And I truly doubt his style is anything like mine. I’m sure you’re just imputing that. Though the abuse I get from anti-NKT zealots does suggest there’s some other Ron out there who’s really p***ing people off.
On issues of how the NKT spend their money, what makes you think I have any say on that, or that my opinion on this is gong to be of any more value than yours?
I don’t believe it’s got anything to do with this particular subject anyway.
Let’s leave it at that, huh? Because you and I simply don’t share the same opinion on this issue. (And to remind you what the issue is, it’s about whether the Dalai Lama should be allowed to discriminate against Shugden worshippers or not.)
Ron // May 2, 2008 at 9:41 pm |
Dear Pugwash
I read your link. Needless to say, a one-off comment on an online article from an anonymous person who may or may not be Tibetan and who may or may not be called Tenzin is hardly definitive. However, it was interesting and I did take note of what he said. But I have to say, if the Dalai Lama ever made comments like that, surely we’d have heard reports of them from other sources? I suspect this is not trustworthy or credible. However, in the interests of pursuing the truth, I’ll make an effort to see if this sort of story can be verified by any other reports. I can’t do more than that. Fact is, in my two or so years of reading on this subject, I haven’t come across anything that backs up this comment.
PS: my reference to millions of practitioners includes practitioners elsewhere in Asia and the world. Estimates I’ve heard, about 4 million people practice Shugden worship around the world, most in Tibet, Mongolia, Nepal and other parts of that region. (In Tibet, they’re a minority but a significant one. There are many more in Mongolia, and some in places like Siberia. In India, perhaps up to 20,000 or so, but then there are only 100,000 or so Tibetans in India, so they’re well represented). Anyway, I don’t have a precise breakdown and I don’t really care to engage in some kind of statistical ping pong on how many there really are.
So goodbye, Pugwash. I’ve said what I have to say, and more than I should’ve. I’d rather end this discussion here, if you don’t mind. Have a good life.
Captain Pugwash // May 3, 2008 at 12:38 am |
Dear Ron,
You keep checking and i will keep checking.
Still amazed that you don’t enter into a meaningful discussion about anything i have said.
Love the idea of anti NKT zealots though. The main problems NKT have are coming from their own (free thinking) party line zealots. LOL.
End the discussion. It never started in the first place. I must have touched a raw nerve somewhere though the! The way you respond is all revealing.
‘There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy’.
I will leave it there too.
Captain Pugwash // May 3, 2008 at 5:10 am |
Ron,
Just to clarify – my beef is with the NKT’s position on this and in the light of it’s own double speak and intolerance with regard to it’s own internal affairs.
I do not think GKG is absolutely wrong and Dalai Lama absolutely right or vice versa. I have practiced Shugden for 9 years. I will not take sides on this one way or the other. If we are on different sides but are honest and open then this is good for both of us. I did not mean to be antagonistic to you personally and apologise if this is how i came across.
See you on the other side.
Ron // May 3, 2008 at 6:56 pm |
No problem, Captain. It’s all good. I’m not keen on drawing my line in the sand on this one either. I’ll not be making any further public comments, and feel I went much further than I wanted to in my comments here.I certainly won’t be involved in demonstrations either.
monkeys ~ not just for people anymore // May 5, 2008 at 10:29 pm |
its a mobius loop de loop = both sides are the same side but its really amazing to cut one in two the long way ~ try it – yewl like it!
is that a banana?
PTip // May 11, 2008 at 1:26 pm |
These activities of the Western Shugden Society (or New Kadampa Tradition) are an amazing example of cross cultural confusion, lacking any knowledge of the Vinaya, and being based on confusion about what human rights and religious freedom means.
As people are free to do religious practices as they like to do in private, even when seen as harmful, and NKT and the Shugden followers practice Shugden as they like to do and nobody stops or “bans” them doing that practice (although it is seen by the majority of Tibetan Buddhists from all schools as harmful), the monastic community is also free to ask those who practice Shugden worship, which is seen by 96% of the Gelug-monastics (the majority) as harmful, to do it not at their place (Drepung, Sera or Ganden).
If the majority of the monastic community ask those monks who from their point of view do a harmful & destructive practice, to stop it or otherwise to leave the monastery, what is wrong with this? This is their right as well.
Every community has the right to set up rules for the sake of the community’s peace and development.
Those expelled monks can set up their own monasteries with the financial help of Kundeling Rinpoche, Lama Gangchen, the Chinese and Geshe Kelsang Gyatso. Nobody forbade them to do it at another place, they were asked to stop it in the monasteries, where the majority of monks disagree strongly with this practice.
Let’s ask Geshe Kelsang Gyatso:
What is more important the peace and harmony of 10.000 monks or the personal freedom of six, or 300 monks, who do something which is seen by the majority as destructive?
As I said, those few expelled monks can create their own monasteries and practice there as they like to do. They have that freedom, as well as doing that practice at other places. However, in every community freedom is naturally limited for the sake of the majorities conducive development. Shugden worship is not seen by the majority as a conducive nor useful practice, it is seen as harmful and destructive.
Moreover the confusion of NKT is stunning. Geshe Kelsang Gyatso (as well as Kundeling) forbid the veneration and images of the Dalai Lama (as the Chinese do too) they have a lot to do right in front of their own doors which is far more questionable and dictatorlike than the democratic decisions of the Sangha community in India.
For monks it is not correct to disrespect the decisions of the majority of the ordained Sangha community, rumouring the own dissatisfaction and projections by press campaigns to the world audience, putting the blame on the Dalai Lama, denouncing him in such a hard time of struggle with the Chinese, undermining his activities for the sake of the Tibetans.
I think, such inappropriate actions are the cause of disharmony and suffering, and show how fundamentalist and deluded these people are. So much self-pity and self-centred behaviour, seeing only the own perspective while accusing only others, is quite amazing.
Let’s listen what these people have to say:
“All these horrible situations have developed through the power of your evil actions. This is our valid evidence to prove that you are not Buddhist. Because of this, we also believe that you are the saffron robed Muslim. Throughout your life you have pretended to be a Buddhist holy being giving Buddhist teachings that you have stolen from Trijang Rinpoche. By doing this, you have cheated people throughout the world. In summary, it is clear that your real nature is cruel and very evil. Copyright © 2008 WesternShugdenSociety.org.”
PTip // May 12, 2008 at 2:25 pm |
@Captain Pugwash #24:
I am not so sure, if this is an issue of religious freedom of politic. I think, if people would have more background information they could recognize, that many high Lamas see and saw Shugden Worshipping as a harmful and destructive practice, which has a negative effect on the mind and the outer, inner and secret practice conditions.
Especially Nyingma lamas and Kaygue lamas see it that way. They see the force of Shugden as something very destructive, demonic. I asked many of those lamas, and they all said this, without exception. Moreover all of them said, one should really follow the Dalai Lama’s advise in that issue. They added, if there are difficulties due to past engagement in this practice, one should go for refuge to the Dalai Lama. I know a lot of people who had many many difficulties regarding that practice. Some wrote to HHDL and he prayed for them and sent them a protection string. Those people said to me this helped them. I had a powerful Nyingma lama who helped me. I still have his protection amulet.
I think, it is not only politics. I think it is mainly a spiritual issue, waking the dark sides in us (greed to power, sex and money).
Of course it has also a political connotation, because it was used for establishing Gelug exclusivism and for the sake of power struggles against the institution of the Dalai Lamas by Gelug conservatives and aristocrats, who were unhappy with his reforms (for the sake of farmers and poor people) who cut their freedoms.
Namkai Norbu Rinpoche strongly discourages all his students to have even contact with someone who practices it – especially NKT members. What political reasons he should have for such an advice? Mindolling Trichen Rinpoche is a very strong opponent of it. Nyingmas were almost never involved in politics and seem to be the strongest opponents of that ‘practice’. So it is not only a political issue, it is also very much a spiritual issue.
Although Shugden was practised by some Sakyas as a lower deity (worldly protector), there was also disagreement about this ‘protector’ in the Sakya school, and nowadays it is not practised any more.
I myself don’t wish to live together with people who practice Shugden. I would also not live or move in a monastery were this is practised. (Just to protect myself from the harm and negative influence of that practice.)
Monasteries have also (human) rights and religious freedoms: they can set up rules to protect the Sangha members. Everyone has the choice to live at another place, if one disagrees with those rules. And the majority of the monastery has also the right to ask those (very few members – 6 from some thousand) ignoring the rules and their concerns and disagreement with such a controversial practice, either to stop or to leave the place.
Rules against Shugden worship were also set up in the past in the Monastery’s constitution e.g. by Purchog Jampa Rinpoche, a very high lama of Sera Je Monastery, who is seen as an incarnation of Buddha Maitreya.
It is something which strikes me how one-sided and manipulative Shugden followers spread information, only to point at the end at the Dalai Lama, putting all the blame on him, denouncing him as “evil”, “cruel”, “a ruthless dictator”, their enemy or the enemy of the ‘pure’ Dharma, while ignoring the complex background of that issue, and related issues. Instead of being sensitive, mindful, trying to see other point of views (being open to a broader perspective), examine the history and neutral historical sources, looking from different angles in this issue, they exaggerate events, put a spin on the facts, spread wrong information and following a strict black & white pattern. I never met Shugden followers (including lamas), who were open to criticism or asked themselves; maybe we also did something wrong or in the past something went wrong? Where is critical reflection and analyse, which the Buddha encouraged his followers to apply?
For me this is a sad story.
On the other hand, I think, as any other religion is faced with fundamentalism, Buddhists are faced with fundamentalists and the issue of fundamentalism too.
That highly developed spiritual beings, like HHDL, have people going against them is also something common. The Buddha had Devadatta, Jesus and Franz von Assisi were also faced with hostile beings. I do not wish to be a part of such people who denounce the Dalai Lama in a way how the Chinese Communist Party – a true dictatorship – enjoys.
It is amazing how the own life can unfold.
This is just how the things are. I decided to accept that.
empty // May 14, 2008 at 4:01 pm |
Captain Pugwash, you asked why the NKT cannot do something practical and build a monastery for Shugden practitioners? They are. GKG also gave a number of the monks enough money to live on for four months, out of his own money, and the NKT are sponsoring them for the rest of the year.
But that won’t solve the problem of DL’s persecution of Dorje Shugden practitioners which has now pervaded into lay Tibetan society. This is about way more than two groups of Buddhists arguing over a Deity. It’s about people not being allowed to buy food, monks being denied water in the Indian heat, six-year old children receiving phone calls saying ‘we will kill your daddy’.
One of the downfalls of the Bodhisattva vows is ‘not doing wrathful actions when appropriate’. I don’t see anyone other than GKG standing up to this guy, they’d all rather get their photo taken with him.
Ron // May 15, 2008 at 2:13 am |
I studied witchcraft persecutions around the world (and specifically in Africa) at university and this situation reminds me very much of that kind of activity. A group of people are accused of conducting evil or harmful practices. They are then ostracised and sometimes persecuted (indeed, in Sekhuneland, where I studied this phenomenon for my postgraduate dissertation, they were actually burnt to death). It’s something that happens around the world, and happened in Europe too in times of turmoil and stress (most notably around the Reformation and Counter Reformation). I don’t believe for a moment that Shugden is a harmful practice. I think people who practice Shugden are scapegoats, and there are many reasons behind it, including political reasons. This is a good old-fashioned witch hunt, as any anthropologist would be able to tell you. It’s not at all coincidental that this is happening at a time of great stress for Tibetans. That is the pattern for this kind of persecution everywhere it occurs, in every culture and every region. The greater the turmoil, the easier it is for this sort of conflict to take route. This is a clear demonstration that Tibetan Buddhism is still steeped in mythology, superstition and ignorance. Anybody that swallows the Dalai Lama’s explanation that this is a harmful practice is naive, ignorant and uneducated. Western Buddhists, and westerners in general, should not be falling for this, or accepting it. We do not live in the dark ages anymore, but many Tibetans – including the Dalai Lama – still do.
Captain Pugwash // May 15, 2008 at 3:08 am |
Last night many Glasgow Rangers fans went on the rampage in Manchester after their team lost. Do you blame them individually or do you blame Glasgow Rangers and the Manager Walter Smith.
Thank you for answering my question, but I am talking about resolving this conflict not just a few scraps from the table. Call the Dalai Lama’s bluff. Set up that temple for Shugden practitioners. Then if he continues to persecute them directly or indirectly the situation will become clear. He can no longer argue that he is only exercising his authority in the monasteries under his control and fulfilling the wishes of the majority of shangha in those monasteries. Otherwise you are just fighting from the same entrenched position and there will be no opportunity for a resolution.
In reply to Ron – yes i agree but this applies to both sides – what about the Yellow Book?
I am sure you have read this but i will post anyway for all to see.
http://www.tibet.com/dholgyal/CTA-book/chapter-5-3.html
http://www.lsa.umich.edu/asian/asian_detail/0,2929,25247%255Fpeople%255F21443229,00.html
Ron // May 15, 2008 at 2:55 pm |
This is true, Captain Pugwash.
Some superstitious fool wrote something called the Yellow Book and other superstitious fools believe it. As a result, thousands of Shugden practitioners are being persecuted, largely because the God-King of Superstitious Fools says they are engaging in a harmful practice.
no more marshmellows // May 15, 2008 at 9:27 pm |
eye think post #19 says it all ~ tho I have to say eye really do have a soft spot for Superstitious Fools = I find they make great dinner guests.
Ron // May 16, 2008 at 1:22 am |
I find they make great dinner. I also like them for breakfast.
Captain Pugwash // May 16, 2008 at 3:26 am |
Ron, You do have a selective and simplistic way of looking at things.
The abuser becomes the abuse.
Quite ironic really.
Well as NKT speak goes when they answer the abused…… ‘it must be your karma’….
I’m off … the Black Pig is about to set sail
LazyBuddhist // May 16, 2008 at 10:42 am |
Captain – please refrain from making personal attacks on the other posters. Let’s try to keep this dialogue civilized.
Thank you.
Ron // May 16, 2008 at 5:38 pm |
Hi Captain
The reason you think I’m simplistic is simply because you don’t agree with me. I have read a lot about this subject and will continue reading up on it, wherever the information comes from, and whatever point of view it reflects. I’m sorry you think I’m selective in my view. I don’t really know why you think that. I have examined the points of view of people who support the Dalai Lama on this in great depth and have come to the conclusion that that they are simply following him blindly. It’s not as if I don’t know the other side of the story. I just don’t agree with it. You don’t seem to like me because you think I’m NKT and, as you have admitted, you have a beef with the NKT. Well, your beef is not my beef. Actually, I don’t even eat beef. I’m a vegetarian (despite what I said in my previous post, which by the way was a joke).
Ron // May 16, 2008 at 6:11 pm |
Hi Captain
Just for your information, and everyone else here, I am not actually a Shugden practitioner. Though I am associated witht the NKT, I declined from engaging in any Shugden practice because I was uncomfortable with the controversy, and also because I wanted to associate with non-NKT groups, and some of them would refuse to welcome me if I practiced Shugden. I took my refuge vows with the FPMT about two years ago, which is one of those groups. I still attend some FPMT classes and some NKT classes. As I have never had to practice Shugden, I don’t feel I need to start now. However, I also don’t feel it’s a harmful practice. I don’t intend to stop attending NKT or FPMT classes unless someone forces me to, which would be unfortunate to say the least.
Captain Pugwash // May 17, 2008 at 12:26 am |
Hi Lazy Buddhist,
Sorry if that’s the way it came across. I was not referring to Ron as an abuser. It was in reference to the author of the Yellow Book and Shugden issue today. I should have been clearer.
Captain Pugwash // May 17, 2008 at 12:38 am |
Hi Ron,
Sorry to you – again i was not trying to imply you were simplistic. Evidently from your last posts you are not. I just don’t think the debate can be portrayed/viewed in simplistic terms.
Yep – you are right – my beef is with the NKT and their involvement with this. My arguments are to do with politics, control, manipulation, coercion and are directed against the organisation and its ‘double speak,. I don’t have a problem with the validity of the teachings – just the way the dharma is taught and the way dharma centres are run. The bottom line is the NKT operate with a complete lack of duty of care towards its students and teachers. This may not be so for someone attending teachings but on other levels – particularly if one decides to live in a dharma centre and give one’s life to the tradition – it is so. I wish it were not.
LazyBuddhist // May 17, 2008 at 9:32 am |
No problem, Captain. I was probably being a little overly cautious because I’ve seen way too many of these NKT or DS discussions devolve into nastiness and name calling While I don’t want to squash a lively debate, I just want folks to keep it respectful.
Ron // May 17, 2008 at 9:29 pm |
Hi, Captain.
Yes, I understand. There are problems. Many people have had bad experiences, and I feel sorry about that. Anyway, I can’t get into this discussion because it’s all too loaded. I too did have a bad experience, but resolved it. Anyway, the NKT in Australia is a lot less of a mess than in the UK and US. Keep well.
Ron // May 17, 2008 at 10:35 pm |
No offense, Captain.
I didn’t mean to suggest that this wasn’t a worthy talking point. I’ve been involved with Survivors, eSangha and the other NewKadampa Yahoo forum and have discussed the bad experiences some people have had at length for many months. It’s an emotional issue and quite complex and multi-faceted. It’s also very traumatic for some. I do empathise and realise that the NKT often handles things in the wrong way and that many people who’ve been involved for years have been mishandled. Furthermore, there have of course been numerous scandals, etc, which makes it even more of a mess. However, my particular experience has been positive enough for me to resolve my own differences with the tradition. It’s a tricky patch of road to negotiate. As I said above, the NKT in Australia is to some degree removed from most of these institutional problems, and some of the more extreme ideological aberrations that seem to afflict some teachers in the organisation. Regardless, I certainly would never move into a centre, as I do think the experience would be far too intense for me. In the end, I’ve made the decision to stay on with the NKT, so you and I are likely to be on opposite sides of the table. But as you said to me earlier, we each have to do what we have to do with as much integrity as we can muster.
Regards
Ron
Captain Pugwash // May 18, 2008 at 1:04 am |
It’s nice to agree to disagree. I really do wish you all the very best.
no more marshmellows // May 18, 2008 at 9:30 am |
I disagree!
no more marshmellows // May 24, 2008 at 4:56 pm |
what happens now if i agree with #52?
no more marshmellows // May 26, 2008 at 8:33 am |
at the risk of being called a dangerous pervert AGAIN I kinda think itz oddly strange and extremely typical (now therez sum oxymorons for ya) that all the passion seems to have drained outa this issue = not so fast grasshopper.
with our finger on the trigger we wait for targets ~ but whose gun is it anywayz? time will tell ~ but what was the question?
phelim // June 1, 2008 at 3:36 am |
It seems quite clear that the DL is very keen to destroy the practice of DS, and has his people dealing with this. he is unable to offer any rational explanation for this action, he is unwilling to discuss it openly and is relying on his cartoon good guy image to let him get away with it, a bit like michael jackson did with all those children. This man has lived surrounded by people who never question his opinions, he is living in comfort while his people (who haven’t elected him)live in poverty. I think it’s right to question what he’s up to and reasonable to expect a response. obviously his own people face recriminations for disobeying him as can be clearly evidenced. I am very distressed by the whole situation but I’m willing to face it with an open mind and to put aside my preconceptions of how marvelous the DL is,
unless you engage in this (DS) practice who or what DS is irrelevant because to you he is nothing, any Buddha/deity only exists as an aspect of the practitioners mind which develops through the practice, to think there is some independent “real” DS is nonsense, all Buddhist practices are methods to attain an enlightened mind, whoever we are we can never be in a position to ethically or morally determine the methods other people should use to overcome their limited samsaric condition to benefit others by becoming a Buddha. Once you have invested a lot of time and effort into a practice why should someone else try to deny you the chance to complete it. surely an truly enlightened being would rejoice in your efforts. I have lost faith in the Dalai Lama he is not a spiritual leader he is not interested in helping people to attain enlightenment he is a politician and a celebrity and he is obviously jealous of other Lamas who have maintained their purpose
no more marshmellows // June 1, 2008 at 10:15 pm |
“to think there is some independent “real” DS is nonsense”
eye like this ~ so then if we cross mikelJ with gorgB we get dalaiL?
even if ya dont take sides ya still dont hafta sit on the fence cuz that REALLY hertz = unless . . . ? ? ? ?
he who is without pride knows the peace of a tuff butt = takes a whippin an keeps on tickin = so then like the man sez – sit onit
Captain Scarlet // June 4, 2008 at 2:56 am |
Hey Phelim – you don’t half get around. Seen this post before. You are not debating just cuttin ‘n’ pastin everywhere you can.
You can run but you canee hide.
phelim // June 4, 2008 at 11:20 am |
At least I’ve got a point to make whatever I’ve said elsewhere remains relevant here, would you care to address the issue?
no more marshmellows // June 9, 2008 at 9:03 pm |
yes eye wood thank you very much ~ the address of the issue should be c/o Santa Claus – North Pole. However since the Easter Bunny died for our sins it probably wont get there before the permanent departure of ice from said Pole sewit probably makes more cents to look at the issue from both sides.
If little colored eggs and chocolate bunnies can replace the crucifixion of a saint then may be we’d be a voiding such a thing buy sluggin it out with the DL and DS. Me thinks them flaming swords wont be fittin under the xmas tree any time soon.
so in the mean time (and I do mean mean time)whose red eye to git nailed? been there done that?
Bloof // June 10, 2008 at 12:21 pm |
“Though I am associated witht the NKT, I declined from engaging in any Shugden practice because I was uncomfortable with the controversy”
If you’ve ever attended an NKT ceremony like Wish Fulfilling Jewel there will be Shugden worship within the service. It’s quite hard to avoid – it’s something I’ve struggled with – do I keep silent during these parts or what?
no more marshmellows // June 10, 2008 at 12:53 pm |
kinda uncomfortable on the fence aint it? u shud re frain imo until you feel like it makes sense or doesnt – no knead to rush cuz you r building YER realashunship with holy being so no BODY kin tellya watts the right way or wrong way to do that ~ ya gotta follow the definitive spiritual guide at yer heart ~ stay open and avoid the pressure either way. if fowks is uncomfort able with yer poezishun den dats dare problem
macaroni time // June 10, 2008 at 12:55 pm |
cheesy
kangroos make good eatin // June 10, 2008 at 1:38 pm |
strange but true ~ is it rubbing salt in old wounds that had almost healed over, opening a new front in the lama warz, or just a plain shit fight? possibly all three and something more as well?
if enlightened beings exist in the way we are taught then they can manifest in any form that is helpful. depending on the karma of those being helped it can look like a helping hand or a kick in the butt or ? ? ? ? (insert imagination here)
if we were enlite end then we’d know. but then maybe eyez the only won knot. in that case it seems no one’s willing to fess up. so all thatz left as fur as eye kin see is just tryin hold the best intense shun as we shuffle stumble giggle wiggle glide slide or abide along the path eh?
breathe mints anyone?
Ron // June 10, 2008 at 3:10 pm |
Yes Bloof
I keep silent during those parts. Actaully, I no longer attend Wishfulling Jewel, but I keep silent during the Heart Jewel parts in the Spiritual Guide puja (Lama Choepa). I have noticed I am the only one who does this at my centre. I don’t have a problem with Shugden practice, but don’t practice it because I was uncertain about it when I first started attedning, and feel no need to start now. Also, I attend other centres who have a problem with Shugden practice.
Ron // June 10, 2008 at 3:52 pm |
Yes Marshmallows.
It’s uncomfortable but my fence sitting has evolved into a fine art. I’m like those body modifiers – the ones that sleep on beds of nails and the like. There’s no pain anymore. And I now have one tough leathery arse.
kangroos make good eatin // June 11, 2008 at 6:32 am |
the leathery the arse the softer the heart
like in enknee family me thinks they is sum that’s easier to hug den udders. i guess eye m just an ol’ shugdan hugger butt ya still gotta believe either way them flamin swords aint just for showin they also four blowin
PTip // June 13, 2008 at 3:15 pm |
I have set up a website which includes an article about the background of the Western Shugden Society. In that article there is a witness quoted about of what happened in Sera Mey.
http://info-buddhism.com/Western_Shugden_Society_unlocked.html
The complete website is dedicated to offer a different pov on New Kadampa Tradition, Dorje Shugden Controversy and related issues, it aims to balance the one-sided information which NKT spreads.
The monk Lobsang Jangchub, a witness of the events in Sera monastery (India), whishes “to counter the innacurate picture that the NKT is trying to paint of the situation” and states:
“I resided at Sera for a total of about 20 months from 2003-2006. From 2004 onwards I had a basic enough understanding of Tibetan to know what was going on. My teacher was selected by HHDL to serve as Abbot and held that position for 10 years, partly because of his ability to handle the Shugden issue.
At first, the Sera administration tried a “live and let live approach”, where the Shugden monks could do prayers in Pomra khangtsen but those of us who didn’t want to participate didn’t have to. And during the kangso pujas very few monks attended unless they were financially destitute and needed the money. I would say there were only about 90-120 monks who sincerely believed in the practice, out of a khangtsen of at least 400.
Things came to a head because the Shugden supporters pushed the issue, handing out copies of the prayer to all monks during pujas and pressuring them to recite. Hanging large Shugden thangkhas in the khangtsen, and fining those Pomra monks who did not attend puja.
Because of this situation, my teacher and the administration at Sera Mey felt they had no choice but to draft the oath for monks to sign. But this was after extensive discussion with HHDL and patiently waiting to see if the Shugden people would lighten up. After they tied up a visiting Dharamsala politician to a chair, the situation was sealed. Khen Rinpochey felt Shugden had to be controlled into the monastery, for the future of the lineage.
I doubt any of the protestors have visited the monasteries of South India in the past ten years so really the information they are receiving is not first hand, but rather hearsay. It is simply an opportunity, I feel, for those who have grudges against His Holiness the Dalai Lama to try to damage his image.
Leading up the oath circulated against Shugden at Sera Mey there were also several other important developments. One was that my teacher, then abbot of Sera Mey, received threats to his personal safety when he tried to bring the situation under control by having the monks at least not try to promote Shugden openly. This is well documented and HH Dalai Lama mentioned it himself at the Kalachakra I attended in 2004 in Toronto.
The khangtsen was also being torn apart by the dispute because a new shrine hall was being built and the Shugden elements wanted a protector chapel in the back, and planned on ordering large statues. This further aggravated the situation. Once again, not from the side of the abbot and HHDL’s supporters, but from the Shugden side who kept trying to push the issue.
The harmony of such a large monastery (Jey and Mey combined form Sera, which has about 5,000 monks) is essential and the Shugden situation was becoming out of control. Not only were threats being made but there were arguments between monks and a deep feeling of disharmony.
In addition, some of those practising Shugden were even attending high tantra initiations with HHDL despite the fact that HH stated that to do so would harm the lineage, his life etc… In short, they were taking HHDL as vajra master but deciding not to follow his direction in practice.
When I asked one monk whom I knew supported Shugden why he was attending an initiation HH was granting in India, he told me to shut up and mind my own business. I was later warned by friends to be less open about my disapproval for such matters because people had been previously physically harmed.
So, that is pretty much all the information I have to share. Of course it is my experience and the experience of my teacher. But, because I stayed at Sera for a reasonable period and speak decent colloquial Tibetan, I feel I am better qualified to inform people about what is going on rather than NKT cadres who have never set foot in India. I doubt even GKG has been there in the past decade.”
He original posted this at the New Kadampa Survvivors forum and allowed me to use his statement.
I hope this helps to get a more differentiated and broader picture of the situation and what actually happened.
Many Regards.
Dharmapal // June 19, 2008 at 6:08 pm |
IPTip?! Is this the same PTip Tenzin whose avowed agenda is to destroy the NKT and Dorje Shugden practice?!
Rest of the rant has been deleted. Sorry, Dharmapal, but you have exceeded your allowance of contributor bashing for the day.
Dharmapal // June 19, 2008 at 6:11 pm |
If the Dalai Lama had some good reasons for banning the practice, it would still be an infringement of human rights and religious freedom, but would still be slightly more tolerable. However, his reasons are all politically motivated and/or superstitious and easy to refute. Please take a moment to see the other side of the argument (after all, the Dalai Lama does get most of the airtime!)
1. Dorje Shugden practice is not “religion”, it is “spirit worship”
To say that Dorje Shugden practice is “not religion” but “spirit worship” is plainly insulting to many peoples’ beliefs on different levels – not only to Buddhist practitioners of Dorje Shugden (who are not spirit worshippers) but also to other practitioners of other religions worldwide that may include spirit worship, including the ancient Bon tradition of Tibet.
Most of the hundreds of thousands of people who rely upon Dorje Shugden are pure Buddhists in the tradition of Je Tsongkhapa, the founder of the Gelug tradition of Tibetan Buddhism. Others are pure Buddhists in the Sakya and Nyingma traditions of Tibetan Buddhism.
Dorje Shugden is considered by them to be a Dharma Protector, an emanation of the Wisdom Buddha Manjushri, whose specific function is to protect the Buddhist or “Dharma” realizations or experiences in practitioners’ minds.
The Dalai Lama travels the world expounding religious tolerance but doesn’t recognize the contradiction in his words and intolerant actions against fellow Tibetans in banning an ancient religious practice dear to their hearts.
Many great Buddhist Teachers or Lamas, including the Dalai Lama’s own principal teacher Trijang Rinpoche, wrote long proofs showing how this Buddhist Deity was special and has a long history of protecting the Dharma, Buddha’s teachings. The fact that numerous past and current Lamas (including even the Fifth Dalai Lama!) have recognized Dorje Shugden as a Deity worthy of “worship” is enough recognition for their followers.
Indeed, determining whether Dorje Shugden is a Buddha or not is beyond the scope of public policy. Nevertheless, many have chosen to follow the beliefs expounded by many high Lamas pre-dating and contemporary with the Dalai Lama who claimed and continue to claim that he is a Buddha. To insult these beliefs and these great Masters is not religious tolerance.
[Also, on another level of irony, this accusation indeed appears a bit bizarre when one remembers that the only monastery/temple dedicated entirely to a spirit is Namgyal monastery. This is the Dalai Lama's personal monastery, where Nechung abides, who has been declared a worldly spirit by the Dalai Lama himself, the Dalai Lama having also clearly stated that Nechung's oracular advice is not always reliable. Nevertheless, Nechung is propitiated with big offerings and rituals daily at Namgyal monastery, and is invoked through various oracle mediums very often - some say more than ever. If we look at the completely and utterly contradictory statements Nechung has made about Dorje Shugden when advising the Dalai Lama to give up the practice, or the disastrously wrong prediction that Tibet would be free by the year 2000, one might indeed worry about spirit worship in seemingly unexpected places!]
2. Dorje Shugden practice causes the degeneration of the pure Nalanda tradition
The Dalai Lama claims that he follows the “Nalanda Tradition”, and this Deity somehow causes the degeneration of that, yet gives absolutely no reason or proof to back up this claim.
Ironically, does the Dalai Lama happen to know who was the last Abbot of Nalanda? It was Shakya Shri Bhadra, who was the previous incarnation of Buton, who was the previous incarnation of Dulzin Dragpa Gyaltsen, who later appeared as Dorje Shugden. There is no way around this.
(http://www.dechen.org/articles/html/shakyashri.html)
The Dalai Lama is the one who is degenerating Buddhism by taking the view of the state oracles that Dorje Shugden is an evil spirit (see below) over the view of his own principal teacher or root Guru, Trijang Rinpoche. (In Buddhism, relying upon the spiritual guide is said to be “the root” of the Buddhist path to enlightenment.) Trijang Rinpoche always maintained that Dorje Shugden is an enlightened being and, according to close disciples, was “disappointed” when the Dalai Lama gave up the practice (the Dalai Lama waited for him to die before he instigated the ban).
The major degeneration that is happening is the unprecedented conflict, which can easily be verified with accounts of the discrimination and disharmony in the Tibetan settlements and monasteries. The communists destroyed many monasteries, yet the tradition on the inside flourished quite well under the leadership of Trijang Rinpoche and Ling Rinpoche (the Dalai Lama’s teachers, both Dorje Shugden practitioners) and other great Lamas (many of them Dorje Shugden practitioners) in exile.
What is happening now, through the will to mislead and incite disharmony with heavy-handed political actions, discrimination, and wrong information, is ruining many thousands of people’s lives. It has caused unprecedented problems in the monasteries in South India and continues to torment practitioners in Tibet, India and all over the world.
3. The Fifth Dalai Lama considered Dorje Shugden to be an “evil spirit” (and the Thirteenth Dalai Lama banned the practice)
It actually does not matter what view people hold of Dorje Shugden. It is still against the Indian Constitution, the Tibetan Constitution and the UN Declaration of Human Rights to prevent freedom of worship of any Deity. Belief is personal and an unassailable human right. People are free to worship a tree, if they so choose.
But there are layers of irony in using the Fifth Dalai Lama as a reason for holding Dorje Shugden to be an evil spirit. In the interview, the Dalai Lama doesn’t even provide half of the story – namely that the Fifth Dalai Lama wrote in his own autobiography that the so called “evil spirit” arose from a highly respected Lama, Tulku Dragpa Gyaltsen, who was murdered by the Fifth Dalai Lama’s administration; and that later in the Fifth Dalai Lama’s life he changed his mind about the nature of Dorje Shugden and wrote a prayer to him as an enlightened Protector. He also offered a temple in Lhasa to him called Trode Khangsar that is still there today, and created a statue with his own hands and placed it at a monastery called Phelgyeling (in Nepal, which is now in the process of being destroyed by the Dalai Lama’s followers).
Elsewhere, the Dalai Lama claims that he is also following the tradition of the Thirteenth Dalai Lama in banning the practice. However, the Thirteenth Dalai Lama never banned the practice. After condemning Dorje Shugden, the Thirteenth Dalai Lama is said to have changed his mind on the issue and taken up the practice himself (Exploring New Religions, page 239).
The biography of the Thirteenth Dalai Lama does not mention any ban of Dorje Shugden or his oracle. On the contrary, it mentions advice given by Dorje Shugden through the oracle at Tromo Dungkar Gonpa, which the Thirteenth Dalai Lama appreciated and followed (‘phags.pa ‘jig.rten dbang.phyug gi rnam.sprul rim.byon gyi ‘khrungs.rabs deb.ther nor.bu’i ‘phreng.ba.bzhugs.so, compiled by Phurchog Yongzin Thubten Jampa Tsultim Tenzin, Dharamsala, 1984, pp. 621, 630 and 648). Moreover, at no time did the Thirteenth Dalai Lama close Trode Khangsar in Lhasa, a residence of Tulku Dragpa Gyaltsen that the 5th Dalai Lama had authorized to be turned into a special Protector temple for Dorje Shugden.
The Thirteenth Dalai Lama had great faith in Tomo Geshe Rinpoche, a well-known Dorje Shugden practitioner, whom he called “a manifestation of Je Tsongkhapa.” According to page 620 and 649 of the Thirteenth Dalai Lama’s autobiography, Dorje Shugden came spontaneously through the Tromo Dungkar Gonpa Oracle in trance in front of Tomo Geshe Rinpoche and informed him that there was danger from foreign aggression toward Tibet. Dorje Shugden advised renovating two stupas, “the eastern and western one”. Upon receiving the message, the Thirteenth Dalai Lama immediately renovated the great golden stupa at Ganden and the Potala in Lhasa. The Potala is huge, so this was no small feat! In his autobiography, the Thirteenth Dalai Lama praised Tomo Geshe Rinpoche for having helped to avert a possible national crisis.
In any event, even if the Dalai Lama were right on this (which he is not), the 6th, 7th, 8th, 9th, 10th, 11th and 12th Dalai Lamas did not ban the practice, so the preponderance of precedent is towards allowing the practice.
4. Many past Lamas have considered Dorje Shugden to be an evil spirit
The Dalai Lama makes a brief mention in this interview that reflects a number of claims suggesting that important Lamas over the last 370 years have warned against Dorje Shugden. These claims are all unsubstantiated and the evidence he has provided does not even circumstantially make this case against Dorje Shugden. The Fifth Dalai Lama’s example is given above. Phurchok Ngawang Jampa doesn’t say anything about Shugden or “Dholgyal” in his history of the four great monasteries. Trichen Ngawang Chokden never mentions Dholgyal specifically. All Yongzin Yeshi Gyaltsen mentions is a “new protector”; there is nothing about Shugden or “Dholgyal” in his work. Far from saying harm comes from Dorje Shugden, in his collected works Ngulchu Dharmabhadra answers a question about Dholgyal and Ganden Lha Gyema in which he confirms that Tulku Dragpa Gyaltsen is Dorje Shugden, appearing as a wrathful Manjushri (a Wisdom Buddha). And so on.
5. This has remained “very controversial worship” for more than 370 years
The Dalai Lama has failed to provide anything to substantiate this claim. The controversy has only unfolded in the past 30 years after the Dalai Lama spoke out publicly against the practice of Dorje Shugden, even though it is a private practice. Instead of trying to resolve any dispute about this privately in any discussion with any person, including his own teachers, he took it into the public sector as a divisive issue.
Dorje Shugden was even practiced by Nyingma adherents (who he supposedly attacks) for many generations in Gyasumdo, Nepal with no conflict of sects. This was described in anthropologist Stanley Mumford’s work “Himalayan Dialogue” in which he also observed the controversy unfolding in the late 1970’s: “Recently the Dalai Lama, as leader of the Tibetan people, has made a historic judgment. He has determined that the guardian deity called Shugs-ldan is not only too dangerous, but he also has promoted a vicious factional rivalry between the Gelugpa and Nyingmapa religious orders.” (pages 134-135. Madison: University of Wisconsin Press, 1989).
6. It “is not true” that the Dalai Lama banned Dorje Shugden practice
These words in the Interview can only be described as lies: “So then it is my duty or moral responsibility to make clear, but whether listen or not, up to them. So some people criticize me, I banned that sort of spirit worship, that is not true.”
It has not been “up to” anyone to listen or not – everyone has been forced to listen and to act, thousands and thousands of them against their wishes. And the Dalai Lama has very clearly banned the practice. See his own words on the subject over the past 30 years.
Some examples:
March 10th, 1996, during annual teachings at the Thekchen Choeling Temple in Dharamsala, the Dalai Lama imposes a ban on worshipping Dorje Shugden: “Whether outside of Tibet or within Tibet, this deity is discordant with our government and all our deities; this is serious in the context of the common cause of Tibet. It will be good if you comply (with what we are saying) without our having to resort to this last step. It will be the last resort if we have to knock on your doors if you do not follow this advice.”
November 19th-21st, 1996, the Dalai Lama travels to South India to visit Tibetan monasteries at Mundgod, without the traditional request, which is unprecedented for a Dalai Lama. The Dorje Shugden Society holds off a peaceful demonstration in the hope of reconciliation with the Dalai Lama. They petition the Dalai Lama, but they are denied an audience. The Dalai Lama speaks in even harsher terms about the ban, and threatens, “You might feel that by publishing letters, pamphlets, etc. against this ban, the Dalai Lama will revoke the ban. This will never be the case. If you take a hard stand, I will tighten this ban still further.”
The Tibetan Government in Exile and all exiled groups made policies to enforce his wishes. Petitions were sent to all Tibetan settlements requiring them to renounce Dorje Shugden in 1996.
January 13th, 1999, to monks at Trijang Labrang (the home of his teacher, now deceased) in India who questioned the ban: “There will be no change in my stand. I will never revoke the ban. You are right. It will be like the Cultural Revolution. If those who do not accept the ban do not listen to my words, the situation will grow worse for them. You sit and watch. It will grow only worse for them.”
In January 2008 he precipitated a vote through demagoguery to castigate anyone who did not sign a petition renouncing any loyalty to Dorje Shugden. As a result, many monks have been removed from the monasteries. Also a major hostel, Do Khangtsen, belonging to the monastic college of Ganden Shartse, has completely removed itself from the monastic establishment. This is unprecedented in the history of the Gelug tradition.
There has been a great deal of segregation and persecution as a result of this ban and it will continue every day until the Dalai Lama stops his hypocrisy and practices what he preaches, namely freedom of worship.
7. Dorje Shugden practice is sectarian
Since the purpose of praying to Dorje Shugden is to increase love, compassion, and wisdom and to overcome our negative minds including hatred, attachment and ignorance, there can be no link with Dorje Shugden and religious discrimination. Tolerance and respect for all other traditions is highly promoted by Je Tsongkhapa and his emanation Dharma Protector Dorje Shugden.
Sectarianism arises when one tradition imposes its views on other traditions. Shugden practitioners respect the freedom of others to practice according to their wishes. It is the Dalai Lama who is acting in a sectarian way by using the instruments of state power to enforce others to practice according to his view.
Sectarianism can also be seen in the exclusive attitude of the Dalai Lama who allows anyone in the world, Buddhist or non-Buddhist, to attend his teachings except those who pray to Dorje Shugden.
Gelugpa followers rely upon Dorje Shugden as a Dharma Protector of the Gelug sect or tradition of Je Tsongkhapa, but that doesn’t mean it is a sectarian practice. Dorje Shugden practitioners only wish for the freedom to follow their tradition in peace and there is no evidence that they have been intolerant to any other tradition. To say the practice is sectarian is again to slander many of the greatest upholders of the Buddhist teachings in the past three centuries, including the Dalai Lama’s own teacher Trijang Rinpoche.
Numerous statements have been made by current Dorje Shugden practitioners to say that they welcome and respect all traditions and the Dalai Lama has not provided any evidence to indicate that this is not the case. According to the Dalai Lama’s translator in the 1990s, Helmut Gassner: “When during an Anti-Dorje Shugden information meeting in Switzerland the Dalai Lama’s Private Secretary sketched the picture of three hundred years of trouble with these Dorje Shugden people, someone asked him to mention some of the incidents that had occurred during that time. He was unable to come up with even one.”
Also, the ritual aspects of Dorje Shugden practice are even taken from the Sakya tradition, where it was practiced widely until the 20th century. The Dalai Lama says that Dorje Shugden is against the Nyingma tradition, yet as mentioned above Dorje Shugden practice was also practiced by some Nyingma followers, who were also put under the pressure of the ban to give up the practice, as mentioned in Mumford’s book.
The accusation that this practice is sectarian is certainly now inciting vastly more sectarian division and disharmony than any privately recited requests to Dorje Shugden to simply protect the tradition of Je Tsonghapa. The Dalai Lama’s ban and subsequent persecution have brought about the greatest schism within Tibetan Buddhist history – monasteries, communities and families are divided in a way that Mao’s Red Guards from the outside could never achieve.
Being non-sectarian does not mean that you have to receive teachings from all other lineages – it means respecting all other lineages (without the sectarian actions of criticizing or discriminating against them) whilst being content with one’s own. In this respect, it is the Dalai Lama who is being sectarian and Dorje Shugden practitioners who are being non-sectarian.
8. Dorje Shugden is hostile to the Dalai Lama’s government
Another common reason not given in the Nottingham interview appears on a “Brief abstract concerning His Holiness’s the Dalai Lama’s advice regarding the practice of Dolgyal (Shugden)”, issued by the Office of Tibet, Tibet House, 1 Culworth Street, London NW8 7AF, May 2008
“History shows, and His Holiness’s investigations have confirmed, that this spirit is hostile to the Dalai Lama’s government and has been since it was founded by the 5th Dalai Lama. Especially now that Tibetans are facing a struggle for survival, it is a mistake to worship something that is hostile to the Dalai Lama’s government. Therefore, it is in the interest of Tibetans as a whole to refrain from propitiating this hostile spirit.”
That institution, i.e. the Ganden Podrang government, is defunct. It lacks any legal basis or official recognition at this point. It exists today only in the person of the Dalai Lama (and arguably his government in exile, which includes a large number of his own relatives). How can Dorje Shugden then harm that institution? The future of the Dalai Lama’s personal religious lineage is put in question only by the Dalai Lama himself, not Dorje Shugden.
No explanation is given as to how Dorje Shugden harms the institution of the Dalai Lama, there is just the claim.
If the Dalai Lama is supposed to be the political leader of all Tibetans, then his persecution of many thousands of his own people surely harms the institution more than the private prayers of individuals.
Also, for the Dalai Lama’s demand for religious freedom to have greater credibility in the eyes of the Chinese, the Dalai Lama should himself protect religious freedom, not undermine it.
The Dalai Lama’s “investigations” involve invoking Nechung through the human State Oracle, who has had the following things to say (perhaps some of these were given in a false trance? It is difficult to know.):
1st answer of the State Oracle: “Dorje Shugden a powerful deity, only to be worshipped by beings with high realizations. However worshipping this deity would upset Goddess Palden Lhamo (a superior protecting deity, who does not have an oracle)”
2nd answer of the State Oracle: “the deity is appropriate to be worshipped by an individual, but not by a group”
3rd answer of the State Oracle: “Dorje Shugden is a deity, suitable to the others, but not to the successor of the 5th Dalai Lama and those working for the Gaden Phodrang Government established by the 5th Dalai Lama.”
4th answer of the State Oracle: “Dorje Shugden is a spirit born out of a Kagyupa-monk who hated the Tibetan government, and not the incarnation of Tulku Dragpa Gyaltsen”
5th answer of the State Oracle: “Dorje Shugden is the spirit of Tulku Dragpa Gyaltsen, whose Samaya bond to the 5th Dalai Lama was not good, thus it is harmful for this government.”
6th answer of the State Oracle: “Tulku Dragpa Gyaltsen was a good lama, whose works of composition are praiseworthy, therefore Dorje Shugden cannot be the spirit of such a master.”
7th answer of the State Oracle: “Tulku Dragpa Gyaltsen himself was a false Tulku, who came to be among the candidates for the 5th Dalai Lama and failed to be chosen, but through clever tactics of his mother on the first Panchen Lama Chokyi Gyaltsen, he was recognized as the fourth reincarnation of Panchen Sonam Dragpa (the teacher of 3rd Dalai Lama), but was then born as an evil, trouble-making spirit to harm the Tibetan government.”
All in all, it is hard to see how the Dalai Lama is talking “frankly, straightforwardly and honestly”, let alone how he is being “sincere”. Once again we request him to lift the ban on this Buddhist tradition and allow everyone freedom of worship.
Moreover, even if the Dalai Lama had said “they are free to choose” (which he has not, except to Western journalists), human rights legal scholars have said when assessing religious freedom that it is not enough for somebody to be ‘free to choose’ if they cannot exercise that choice freely without fear of political, social or economic penalities. Dorje Shugden practitioners face serious penalties for their choice, thus they cannot choose freely.
Dharmapal // June 19, 2008 at 6:12 pm |
And I am sure by now that most of you have seen this excellent website:
http://www.WisdomBuddhaDorjeShugdan.org
Really full of good articles, and a lot of examples of the human rights abuses going on in India.
Ron // June 19, 2008 at 8:16 pm |
Is this hell?
Interminable discussions, complete with alternative websites, on a totally unresolvable issue, with two completely intractable and uncompromising points of view.
And me in the middle.
Sure seems like some kind of hell to me.
What did I do to land me here?
LazyBuddhist // June 20, 2008 at 11:39 am |
Ron -
Yes, welcome to the new hell realm. Located just below the human realm and above the animal realm is the new hell realm of internet blogs and discussion forums. You have quite accurately described the suffering of that realm.
I’m guessing the causes that may land you have to do with verbal non-virtuous actions such as idle chatter, divisive speech, etc. And, I don’t know about you, but lordy lordy lordy, I have certainly engaged in more than my share of those actions.
However, for a hell realm, it is relatively comfy, and you are allowed breaks for playing Scrabulous and checking email.
shaza // June 25, 2008 at 12:14 pm |
Hi Ron,
You said,”Some superstitious fool wrote something called the Yellow Book and other superstitious fools believe it. As a result, thousands of Shugden practitioners are being persecuted, largely because the God-King of Superstitious Fools says they are engaging in a harmful practice.”
Well, the “superstitious fool” who wrote the Yellow Book definitely had Trijang’s consent when he wrote the book. Afterall, many stories of that book came from Trijang.
So who’s the bigger “fool” here, Trijang or his beloved student GKG who dared to doubt his root Guru’s words?
Best
Shaza
Trijang Rinpoche and he endorsed
Ron // June 25, 2008 at 3:59 pm |
Mate, I don’t actually know that much about the Yellow Book, except what I’ve read in secondary form. I’ve not actually read the book itself. Have you?
In all honesty, I don’t think either of us really knows what context those stories were related by Trijang, if indeed they were.
I know that GKG believes the stories are superstitious and am inclined to believe him because in my naive western way they look very superstitious and irrational to me. Remember, Trijang was deeply rooted in Tibet and all it’s pre-modern ways, but GKG is far more westernised.
I’m kind of academic by nature and have seen this sort of thing played out in other cultures in the form of witchcraft accusations and the like. So I really don’t sympathise with people who think these stories are “real”. I think it’s irrational and kind of witless to believe everything Tibetan Buddhists are saying about Dorje Shugden practice.
Of course, you can believe whateve you like. It doesn’t affect me personally.
shaza // June 25, 2008 at 7:56 pm |
Hi Ron
So Trijang claims that Shugden is Buddha and Vajradhara, do you think this is superstitious?
And GKG believes it, do you think he’s not westernied enough to buy into that.
The english translation of a large portion of that book is out there if you care to read at all.
I don’t know if I believe everything in the Yellow Book just as I doubt anything passed down from Trijang, including the legitimacy of the whole Shugden practice that is also practiced in NKT.
So how do you draw the line what and what not to believe? Or you just believe whatever is convenient?
It’s interesting you made a comparison to the witchcraft accusations. Differece being Trijang and his teacher Pabongkha were ACTUALLY performing the sectarian “witchcraft” (to borrow your analogy) with Shugden. Whether it’s as effective as they claim in the Yellow Book is another matter.
I think you half suspected what context the stories were told. I will give you a quote to make it clearer.
‘In his interlinear notes on Phabongkha’s commentary for the Sok Té of this protector, Trijang wrote,
“This protector of the doctrine is extremely important for holding Tsongkhapa’s tradition without mixing and corrupting it with confusions due to the great violence and the speed of the force of his actions, which fall like lightning to punish violently all those beings who have wronged the Yellow Hat Tradition, whether they are high or low. This protector is also particularly significant with respect to the fact that many from our own side, monks or lay people, high or low, are not content with Tsongkhapa’s tradition, which is like pure gold, and have mixed and corrupted this tradition with the mistaken views and practices from other schools, which are tenet systems that are reputed to be incredibly profound and amazingly fast but are in reality mistakes among mistakes, faulty, dangerous and misleading paths. In regard to this situation, this protector of the doctrine, this witness, manifests his own form or a variety of unbearable manifestations of terrifying and frightening wrathful and fierce appearances. Due to that, a variety of events, some of them having happened or happening, some of which have been heard or seen, seem to have taken place: some people become unhinged and mad, some have a heart attack and suddenly die, some see through a variety of inauspicious signs their wealth, accumulated possessions and descendants disappear without leaving any trace, like a pond whose feeding river has ceased, whereas some find it difficult to achieve anything in successive lifetimes” ‘
I hope you will be driven by your curious mind to further investigate the events so we may know more about what really happened and how the Shugden revival came about in the last 80 years.
I guess the motivation to stop this practice is obvious to see. Without disrepect, I think the Dalai Lama was trying to denounce a practice that the 13th Dalai Lama (the previous tulku) failed to control under his nose.
Best
Shaza
Ron // June 26, 2008 at 4:12 pm |
Hi Shaza
You’ve made some good points. Thanks for your polite and considered reply.
When I was studying witchcraft accusations in Africa, it was clear there were people actually doing practices that were considered witchcraft. Not always, but often, those conflicts and accusations emerged on actual evidence of so-called “bad” or “harmful” practices. Does that mean they were really witches?
No. Certainly few western academics would accept that. (Nonethat I’ve met, anyway).
Did both sides believe in the power of those practices?
It appears so, yes. Often the so-called witches believed they were not harmful practices though.
If you wish, I will try source information on this for you but it will take time as I’m quite busy at the moment and I left university many years ago. However, I wrote my History Honours thesis on it and I can probably still find references for you.
Anyway, in this light, you can see the clear parallell between these types of incidents and what’s happening in India currently regarding Dorje Shugden. I’d like to ask you to keep an open mind too and look at this from beyond a strictly religious mindset.
Where to draw the line on what to believe or not. This is indeed the question. It’s a very good one, and a tricky line to draw.
I don’t believe that Shugden is a buddha, nor do I really believe he’s a worldly spirit. I don’t believe buddhas exist inherently. I’ve tempered my practice with a good dose of Western common sense.
In many ways, I draw the line on what is clearly non-beneficial for me to believe. I really do view much of Tibetan Buddhism as mere ornament, and for me dharma protectors probably fall in that category too. They have a function in instilling faith and helping one maintain one’s practice, but ultimately I think they’re a non-essential element in my practice.
I’ve come to think the Dalai Lama’s intent is largely honourable on this issue, but the consequences have been bad, and he doesn’t even appear willing to acknowledge that. And the persecutions seem to continue. So there’s a real problem.
On the other side of the coin, GKG and other Shugden practitioners have illustrated a strong attachment to that one particular practice. And I think more pragmatic practitioners might have let the issue go a little.
Ultimately, I think the Dalai Lama has taken a hardline approach and it is causing people to suffer, whether this practice is undesirable in Buddhist terms or not. He uses the kalama sutta as his defence for doing this, but the kalama sutta doesn’t allow one to make decisions on behalf of others, does it?
So for me, the issue with the Dalai Lama is that he’s tried to force other people to adopt his views. I don’t think that’s acceptable.
And looking at the results its produced, it’s clearly not particularly wise either.
I personally don’t practice Dorje Shugden. I don’t think it’s an inherently bad practice. Regardless, I think it would have been better to allow people to make the choice of discontinuing that practice without trying to compel them to do it.
Regards
Ron
shaza // June 27, 2008 at 12:53 am |
Hi Ron,
Thanks for your thorough reply. I think I understand your position better now.
It’s actually very wise to “bracket” whatever supernatural experiences people might claim to have. As practitioners we do need to be smart. So I have no problem with that.
However, the forces of spirits are very real in the world of Tibetan Buddhism (probably less so in Theravada Buddhism which I don’t know much about) and I suppose there’s hardly any way around the issue if one’s truly a tantric practitioner. So it’s not surprising why Zen was so popular in the West and remains so because it’s largely sutric and not much sadhana practices are involved.
It also explains the popularity of some GKG’s books partly because the Lamrim approach is quite unparalleled in other sutric tradition and epitomes the best of what Tibetan Buddhism has to offer.
But then in order to do tantra right, discretion is advised. And sorry to say the current state of Shugden veneration is nothing but Satan worship with half-baked understanding of emptiness where Shugden practitioners can hide whenever they are accused of propitiating a bad spirit.
So you can imagine the “since things are empty of inherent existence, therefore it’s OK to be wishy-washy” kind of argument doesn’t sit well with me.
The Shugden “witchcraft” was not only viewed by others as harmful but was MEANT to be harmful. In that quote, you can tell Trijang thought that maintaining the GREATER GOOD of the Gelug justifies using the Shugden means of harming other sentient beings. As long as the Shugden worship is still around and viewed as legitimate, there’s no guaranteed that some self-professed Buddhists will take up Trijang’s cause in the name of Shugden.
In the end, how far GKG is going to exercise his poetic license to trim the Shugden worship and paint a rosy picture of him is really up to GKG and his NKTers. I just hope NKT was more upfront about it before other well-intentioned students read his books over a nice cup of NKT cappuccino, got all excited about Buddhism and go through that same old cycle of betrayal and disappointment again.
As for the 14th Dalai Lama, it was his responsibility to point out the faults and then rein in the Shugden worship, something that the 13th tried but failed. But then in hindsight, the Great 13th had bigger things to worry about in Tibet, after maneuvering btw the interests of Britain, Russia and the pre/post Imperial China.
In the same manner, as I have said elsewhere, I don’t think it would be alright for the Pope to turn a blind eye if Roman Catholics openly worship Lucifer under his nose.
Yes. I totally agree with you that we should all exercise restraint in this matter. But I also think there’s some urgency in the matter from a religious/political point of view (vs a purely spiritual arena, if there’s one at all). If the current Dalai Lama failed to stop a sectarian spirit and its practice that is abhorred by all other sects, what kind of repercussions are we expecting in long run after he passed away? He surely cannot say “don’t worry, Shugden’s not gonna harm you, it’s all in your head you know and he lacks inherent existence”.
I agree with Georges Dreyfus when he said the Dalai Lama and the institution could not be seen as fair by other sects if he continues to allow a sectarian practice run wild. This is the more plausible political reason behind his decision.
Other columnists who think that the Dalai Lama was up to some conspiracy and wants to “unite” and “merge” all traditions are simply regurgitating the propaganda churned out by the pro-shugden supporters. And why not? Bashing a “power-hungry” Nobel Prize Laureate is certainly a better news angle than his handshaking with country leaders.
When I objected to their stance, one columnist retorted and told me it’s simply too difficult for him to decide when there are so many claims and counter-claims from both camps. So he just filled in the blanks himself for lack of a better explanation. Though I sympathized with his plight for meeting a deadline, I didn’t agree. So you see, my voice is just a blip on the radar compared to the establishment of Shugden websites, books, hotels and cafes etc etc.
In all due respect, I think the Dalai Lama has tried very hard to advice against the practice in a proper manner, you know the story. When he evoked the Kalama Sutta, he was probably trying to ease the worries of those torn btw two authorities and might fear they have done something wrong in giving up the Shugden practice. Just a wild guess. That being said, he did have authority over the monasteries overseen by the Ganden Podrang.
On another note, it’s possible that the Dharsa-clique or Dalai’s over-zealous supporters are actually carrying out his “religious edict” in a heavy-handed way as the rumors suggest. But then I like reports and researches where I can check my sources. And I welcome any neutral investigative reports where sources could be verified. Until then, there isn’t much I am capable to say about who did what to whom and who killed whom etc. Otherwise the mudslinging just goes on indefinitely.
Best
Shaza
monkees ~ not just for people any more // June 27, 2008 at 9:48 pm |
mudslingin lotus blossoms maybe? ~ i dunno either Shaza
“it’s possible that the Dharsa-clique or Dalai’s over-zealous supporters are actually carrying out his “religious edict” in a heavy-handed way as the rumors suggest”
they iz mudslingin either way ainit?
personally i like to horde my mud and save it up fur spacial ok shuns.
no more marshmellows // June 27, 2008 at 10:08 pm |
“for a hell realm, it is relatively comfy, and you are allowed breaks for playing Scrabulous and checking email.”
Holy Jesus Mary and Joseph ~ how’d die missout on this detail ~ is it break time yet?
kangroos make good eatin // June 27, 2008 at 10:10 pm |
tweachizown
shaza // June 27, 2008 at 11:03 pm |
monkees .. hmm
in that case i will horde some rocks for my slingshot
Ron // June 28, 2008 at 3:23 am |
Hi Shaza
I think for us to arrive at some kind of common ground we’d need to work on some fundamental differences of opinion.
The satan worship comment, for instance. I’ve heard two versions about the nature of Shugden, and to be frank neither are verifiable to my mind (which is a very western mind, admittedly and doesn’t accept a number of Tibetan concepts uncritically). So I don’t really think Shugden worship is necessarily demon worship. Neither is the evidence that shows him to be a buddha any more compelling to me. I have obviously read comments from lamas of various traditions saying Shugden practice is harmful but again find this not easy to accept as the basis for this opinion seems steeped in various mythologies.
I have read up on lots of mythologies. Actually I’ve studied some in detail. And this set of myths doesn’t strike me as any more concrete than any of the others I know – Babylonian, Egyptian, Greek, African, Norse, etc. Yes, I take your point on Tantric practice, but think there’s still scope for me to critique elements of Tibetan belief selectively from a more rational perspective. And it would be a pity if we were all compelled to take a stance on something quite unacceptable simply because the guru deemed it so. This applies to the Dalai Lama as much as it does to Kelsang Gyatso.
On the intent of Shugden worship being harmful, well, this is obviously the crux of the problem. It seems the vast number of Shugdenites today do not believe that the intent of Shugden worship is harmful. They believe it is to protect the purity of their lineage. That is not sectarian. That doesn’t denigrate other sects. Most of these worshippers are not sectarian – not in the West, not in Tibet, and not in India. Now, perhaps there was a sectarian motive when Pabongka established the practice way back, but there was no rampant sectarianism from DS supporters when the Dalai Lama decided to start cracking down on the practice, and hadn’t been for decades. In fact, the Dalai Lama had to do extensive scholarly research to even uncover the so-call “harmful” side of Dorje Shugden. For most of his life he wasn’t even aware of it.
So what we have here is the Dalai Lama discovering a sectarian element to the practice in the past and then banning it. In practical terms, Dorje Shugden practitioners were not engaging in sectarian behaviour. It’s the Dalai Lama’s ban and the subsequent conflict created by his position that has led to all the furore around this issue.
In other words, it’s the Dalai Lama who started this fight, not Shugdenites.
You mention the political reasons for the move by the Dalai Lama. It is good to see that you agree with the demonstrators that the main motive is political. For me, the Dalai Lama has no right to sacrifice the rights of a people who conduct a practice he doesn’t like simply to gain the political approval of other Tibetans. Yeah, I sympathise – he has a kind of difficult task in uniting Tibetans behind one cause. But I’m not inclined to agree that the end justifies the means, and I’m disappointed that a man like the Dalai Lama seems to resort to the same sort of political expedience that politicians like George Bush resort to. It seems he’s more the adept politician and less the compassionate monk than I’d like to have believed.
Finally, there is just too much evidence on inequities in Dharamsala to suggest that it’s all propaganda. Two points are worth making 1) If the Dalai Lama and supporters in the West genuinely cared about the truth and the possible suffering of people in India, it would seem better to investigate it honestly rather than just deny its existence and claim to wait for someone they regard as a neutral source to make a report on it; and 2) if in fact over-zealous supporters of the Dalai Lama are really to blame, surely a compassionate leader would urge restraint instead of simply denying there was a problem and reiterating that it was a harmful practice (the very statement that is leading to this over-zealous action from his supporters in the first place).
I believe whatever actions are being undertaken in Dharamsala must have at least the tacit support of the Dalai Lama. Given the Dalai Lama’s authority and influence, it’s the only conclusion that makes any sense.
To conclude, he seems to genuinely believe its his moral duty to wipe out what he regards as a harmful practice. In the process, he is harming innocent people who believe the practice is not harmful but who can’t give it up because of their commitment to their lineage gurus.
To reiterate, I don’t believe the practice is harmful. So you and I are simply never going to come to the same conclusions on this.
shaza // June 28, 2008 at 8:35 am |
Hi Ron,
Perhaps I wasn’t explaining myself clear enough.
There’s a widespread tendency to blame the Dalai Lama for stirring up the event after he denounced the practice of Shugden in the 70’s (many would like to believe that it was in the mid-90’s).
But no, the controversy went way back before the current Dalai Lama was even born. That’s why I have twice mentioned the futile attempt of the 13th Dalai Lama to stop this practice. I would even go further to say that the current Dalai Lama should have condemned the Shugden practice earlier before the practice gained such a wide popularity among the upper echelon of the Gelug order. In other words, my position is very clear. Even if the Dalai Lama retracted his indictment, I would still object to the Shugden worship as heretic.
The Dalai Lama probably did not need to dig into any history books to see Shugden is sectarian because the Life-Entrustment initiation (Sok Te) that he refused to take from Trijang was indeed sectarian for all to see, for instance.
However, GKG did receive this Sok Te from Zong Rinpoche and if GKG is keeping his samayas at all, he’ll still be practicing it today whether his NKTers know it or not. In this practice, a student has to make a pledge that he could not learn anything from other schools even as to touch a single Nyingma text. It’s a secret practice, only conferred on three people at a time. But then I don’t know if GKG has ever transmitted it. Maybe you can ask around.
Yet, it’s obvious that GKG lied when he said Shugden was not sectarian while clearly knew that he was. So it’s a catch-22 for GKG. If he insists Shugden is not sectarian, he openly broke with his lineage gurus(ie Pabongkha and Trijang) he so often relied on, then there is little legitimacy and lineage blessing in what he teaches. In that case, one might as well go to a zendo and do some sitting meditation instead.
I don’t know what kind of verifiable direct evidence to prove that Shugden is a demon. I certainly cannot because I do not have any direct experience with him except relying on the advices of other spiritual authorities. Even if I told you Shugden gave me a headache, how are you going to know if it’s not my hallucination?
But if your line of argument is permitted, I think the Pope has a problem condemning Lucifer worship or stop Catholics from worshipping him because I doubt if he could ever prove that Lucifer gave him a headache.
So spiritual authority aside, we could appeal to circumstantial evidence like the written records and the like. That’s what I was trying to do all along. And what better evidence than to use Pabongkha’s and Trijang’s own words to prove the point?
You can snap back by saying that most Shugdenites are not sectarian and do not believe Shugden is harmful and therefore he’s not harmful.
This I agree to a certain degree because I have never said that ALL DS practitioners are sectarian, I was just saying they are worshipping a sectarian spirit. Most Shugdenites are duped into trusting the benign nature of Shugden because little is known about his past and some smokescreen has been set up to deceive others about his true nature.
Yes, you are probably right that there’s no “rampant” sectarianism among DS practitioners but I think there are enough to warrant remedy. (It kinda makes me think of the politics of gun-control)
The fact is Shugden MEANT harm for Pabongkha and Trijang. And supposed some DS people in their lineage don’t think so, who are we to trust and who’s the authority on Shugden, the one who created the practice or the ones practicing them?
The fact that you do not believe Shugden is Buddha put you way ahead of many Shugdenites. Through taking refuge in Shugden, one continues to break one’s refuge vows. And it’s a good enough reason to look at it as anti-Buddhist practice even though you don’t believe it is harmful. And no one ever elevated the status of Shugden to the Buddha’s status before Pabongkha.
In addition, I also said there’s a political dimension of Dalai’s denunciation of Shugden. But if you have read me carefully, I did not believe it was Dalai’s intention to unite the Tibetans by this affirmative action. In my view, he was rather protecting the Gelug reputation by weeding out this spirit worship. And he needs to be firm so those who think they “can’t give it up because of their commitment to their lineage gurus” can drop the practice immediately if they have any trust in the Dalai Lama’s spiritual authority.
About your last point, I don’t have much to add except I am just a lazy coach-potato who is trying to strike a balance in the debate. If I told you I had some breaking news report from India about this and that, you probably won’t bother to read given my less than neutral position, so again I’ll leave that issue to those who are more capable and I am sure various PR machines are already pitching their stories to the news media this very moment so…
In the end, I think we do have alot in common. If I am in your shoes I will probably think differently be more sympathetic to the Shugdenites and if you have read what I have, you will probably draw a different conclusion etc etc.
Best
Shaza
Cheyenne // June 28, 2008 at 1:34 pm |
Shazza,
[In this practice, a student has to make a pledge that he could not learn anything from other schools even as to touch a single Nyingma text. It’s a secret practice, only conferred on three people at a time. But then I don’t know if GKG has ever transmitted it. Maybe you can ask around.]
GKG does not confer this practice now, even if he did in the past. He made statement to this effect at the spring festival, saying, I paraphrase, ‘it is not appropriate any more’.
[Yet, it’s obvious that GKG lied when he said Shugden was not sectarian while clearly knew that he was.]
Even if it was so, that you have a commitment not to learn anything from other schools even as to touch a single Nyingma text, this does not make it sectarian.
Non-sectarian means to accept that others can believe or practice their own sect without persecution.
Sectarian means – ‘only that what I do is right, and that what you do is wrong’.
If I had a commitment only to read GKG books (which I haven’t and is what many NKT haters use to incorrectly accuse the NKT of) then I would keep that commitment.
That doesn’t mean that I should say everyone else should only read GKG books and if they don’t they are wrong!!
Non – sectarian means what I do us right for me and what you do is right for you.
As a non sectarian I would fight (yes and demonstrate) for your right to practice what is right for you. That does not mean that I have to practice what you practice or you have to practice what I practice.
If you want to practice witchcraft then I say you have the right to do that, the corollary of course, and as a Buddhist, is that you should do no harm.
So the crux of the argument is whether or not DS practice is harmful. DS practitioners do not wish harm on anyone especially the DL.
Below is part of the DS Sadhanna
‘Beings throughout this great earth are engaged in different actions
Of Dharma, non-Dharma, happiness, suffering, cause and effect;
Through your skilful deeds of preventing and nurturing,
Please lead all beings into the good path to ultimate happiness’.
DS practice has no intention to harm anyone, only to harm delusions, there are no faulty people, but there are people with delusions, gather all blame into one – delusions – remove the delusions and you are left with a pure being.
Cheyenne
Cheyenne // June 28, 2008 at 1:50 pm |
Shazza
From Music Delighting the Ocean Of Protectors
by Kyabje Trijang Dorjechang
Root Guru of most Gelugpa Lamas alive today, including the Dalai Lama, who relied upon Dorje Shugden as his Protector until his death
“Some, who have fallen under the influence of the demon of the partisanship, think and say that this supreme Deity, the great emanated Dharmapala, is no different than an ordinary gyalpo or tsen spirit who has an inferior form as a result of being a monk or lay person who died with bad karma. Leave aside relying upon him as a Protector, they even deride others who do so. There are some, indeed, who echo such claims knowing nothing about it.
“Yet all this talk is nothing but babbling speculation. Why? Because this great guardian of the teachings is well known to be the precious supreme emanation from Drepung monastery’supper house, Dragpa Gyaltsen, arising in a wrathful aspect. The proof is unmistaken. Tulku Dragpa Gyaltsen, as is taught in the lineage, was the final birth in a reincarnation lineage that included the Mahasiddha Birwawa, the great Kashmiri Pandit Shakya Shri, the omniscient Buton, Duldzin Dragpa Gyaltsen, Panchen Sonam Dragpa, and so forth; this is proven by valid scriptural quotation and reasoning. These great beings, from a definitive point of view, were already fully enlightened, and even to common appearances, every one of them was a holy being that attained high states of realization. What worse karma could there be than denying this and asserting that he was born in the preta (spirit) realm?
‘Therefore, for holy beings it is not at all far-fetched that they might show themselves in a wrathful form out of the power of compassion and prayer for the sake of a special purpose, and it should be recognized that they are emanations of Buddha’s inconceivable secret qualities. But for them to take birth as a sky-wandering preta through the force of negative throwing karma like an ordinary preta would be utterly impossible. To say it were possible would be to deny the validity of the natural law of cause and effect. Why? From the definitive point of view those holy beings are fully enlightened. Moreover, even from the common point of view they attained high states of realization in reliance upon guarding their moral disciplines as they would their eyes, from youth onwards throughout their lives. To say that a causal factor of pure ethical discipline could result in rebirth in a lower realm of existence would be to assert that actions performed could be wasted; that one could experience the results of actions not performed by oneself; and that such scriptural statements as “From generosity, wealth, from ethics, happiness, are invalid and so forth. As a consequence, one would be turning ones back on Buddha’s teachings as a whole.
“Furthermore, from the definitive point of view, that these holy beings were already fully enlightened innumerable ages ago, is clear if one examines the accounts of their lives, and if one were to say that a fully enlightened being could take birth as an ordinary gyalpo or tsen spirit, then one would be asserting that degeneration is possible from the state of full enlightenment or that someone could be both fully enlightened and an ordinary preta at the same time! Or else, one would have to say that the accounts of those great beings lives are worthless. A mountain of absurd consequences, previously non-existent distorted ideas, would have to be accepted.”
See the complete text of Music Delighting the Ocean Of Protectors in English or Tibetan.
Cheyenne
Ron // June 28, 2008 at 9:34 pm |
Thanks Shaza
Look, I will try to keep my position moderate on this.
Let’s say another reason I don’t practice Shugden is that I’ve taken refuge in the three jewels. Indeed, I took refuge at an FPMT centre where I promised explicitly not to take refuge in anything that might be a worldly spirit, even if people told me it was a buddha (a direct inference to Shugden, no doubt). So if in doubt I’m committed to taking the safe option.
I’m already aware of the history of Shugden as it relates to the 13th Dalai Lama and his attempts to curb Pabongka. And I have heard about the secret life entrustment (nothing is that secret anymore, I guess).
But as you say, it’s never been a mass initiation. It’s only given to a select few who’ve already demonstrated their commitment to that particular lineage. They are already with that tradition – in fact, among its committed senior practitioners. So I guess I liken it to something like the masons or somesuch where additional loyalty to the group is affirmed at the most senior levels. It’s a bit cultish perhaps. But it’s not deeply sectarian in that’s it’s not encouraging the Gelugpa masses to take up arms, and not suggesting ordinary gelugs can’t cross-fertilise.
Of course, the Dalai Lama in his role was right to reject that Life Entrustment. After all, he has to represent everybody. Certainly, it was not appropriate for someone with his responsibilities and commitments.
You may be right that his stance on Shugden is an attempt to protect the Gelugpa rather than to destroy it. I don’t know. It’s an angle I hadn’t considered. However, I’m not sure he’s going to succeed. Many are probably practicing Shugden in secret, and will come out of the closet when he leaves the scene.
Also, I’m not sure it’s a position he needed to take.
And right now it seems it’s mostly the rank and file monks and the common shugdenites in the street that are bearing the brunt.
Finally, as to GKG not being able to touch other teachings, well – I think those teachings are quite well incorporated into the lineage already – from Mahamudra to Vajrayogini, many of the practices came from other schools but are now firmly a part of the lineage and are now Gelugpa teachings. So it’s not something I think he really has to worry about. I think he’s pretty firmly committed to sticking to those particular teachings and they do represent a complete path. There is no need to look for teachings elsewhere.
Regards
Ron
mr mellow NOT // June 28, 2008 at 11:17 pm |
supposin the pope sez “saint francis is an evil spirit so frank is OUT!” ~ due ya think the frank siskins wood go down without a wimper?
most fowks git a mite jumpy (and I do mean ‘mite’) ifin anywonz gonna be messin wit dere spear-itchewl guide.
once ya bond wit a wholey bean itz purty tuff to tossem overboard even if they nailem to a cross.
shaza // June 28, 2008 at 11:32 pm |
that’s samsara ..mr mellow
and the longer Shugden is allowed to stay there, the more he’ll look like our St. Francis..
so what do you think.. cut a deal with him?
shaza // June 28, 2008 at 11:48 pm |
Hi Cheyenne
Thx for your feedback.
[GKG does not confer this practice now, even if he did in the past. He made statement to this effect at the spring festival, saying, I paraphrase, ‘it is not appropriate any more’.]
Could you kindly explain what was the context/story when he said this at the festival? And why?
So did he abandon the practice personlly or he simply promised not to give the initiation?
All in all, I am pleasantly surprised at GKG’s sudden candidness over the issue. But in my opinion, what he needs to do is to drop the whole Shugden franchise in NKT altogether instead of renovating it in a piecemeal fashion.
[Even if it was so, that you have a commitment not to learn anything from other schools even as to touch a single Nyingma text, this does not make it sectarian. ]
Sorry, it does. Especially when the punishment is misfortune or even death as it is in Sok Te.
[Sectarian means – ‘only that what I do is right, and that what you do is wrong’.]
I agree. This could be one of the motivation behind the sectarian behaviours as it was the case with Pabongkha and Trijang when they condemned the Nyingma practices.
[If I had a commitment only to read GKG books (which I haven’t and is what many NKT haters use to incorrectly accuse the NKT of) then I would keep that commitment.
That doesn’t mean that I should say everyone else should only read GKG books and if they don’t they are wrong!! ]
Why would one need a COMMITMENT to read GKG’s books at all?
And what motivates one to limit one’s options reading ONLY those books in the first place?
I read quite a few of his books and never felt compelled to make a commitment out of it.
It’s just baffling.
That being said. I guess it’s important to differtiate between Tantric commitments and other kinds of “commitments” like the new year resolution to lose weight, for example.
[Non-sectarian means to accept that others can believe or practice their own sect without persecution. ]
But being non-sectarian doesn’t mean that one can call Lucifer worshippers Catholics.
[Non - sectarian means what I do us right for me and what you do is right for you.]
Not exactly.
Being non-sectarian does not have all these “me and you” constraints.
The Six Great Mahasiddhas of Gelug (in addition to Tshongkhapa) all learned from various different schools in their old vibrant non-sectarian ways. They had the OPTION to learn whatever benefitted them w/o being punished.
Those bound by the tantric commitments to stick ONLY with some Gelug teachings have no such options.
[As a non sectarian I would fight (yes and demonstrate) for your right to practice what is right for you. That does not mean that I have to practice what you practice or you have to practice what I practice. ]
It’s perfectly OK to stick with one single practice but it’s a totally different matter to say that one is NOT ALLOWED to learn teachings from other schools or living under the fear of being ostracized for doing so. Again, it’s a matter of choice or the lack of it that counts here.
It’s like saying “you are perfectly free to leave the room, but I’ll shoot you if you do.” What kind of freedom is that?
[If you want to practice witchcraft then I say you have the right to do that, the corollary of course, and as a Buddhist, is that you should do no harm. So the crux of the argument is whether or not DS practice is harmful. DS practitioners do not wish harm on anyone especially the DL. ]
Yes, the point of contention is whether or not DS is harmful. But I would also like to add that, as I have emphasized on and on, is that the DS practice is also heretic. So if you ask me whether it’s OK to practice “witchcraft” (if you agree what DS is all about) as if it is Buddhism, then my answer is no, it’s not OK. One is free to practice witchcraft but stop calling oneself a Buddhist.
Taking refuge in a spirit has no place in Buddhism and you break your vows and stop being a Buddhist. The fact that people is still confused over this issue means more affirmative action is required.
[Below is part of the DS Sadhanna ….]
We could easily replace Lucifer’s name with DS and asked him to “lead all beings into the good path to ultimate happiness”.
Does it make it right? I don’t think either Tantra or Sutra ever warrant that.
And Trijang’s attempt to justify Shugden’s legitimacy in “Music Delighting the Ocean Of Protectors” simply falls apart.
In that little book, Trijang fails to make a case for Shugden’s legitimacy other than claiming that Shugden IS Buddha or Vajradhara.
He even tried to enlist the help Sakya masters to “demonstrate” that Shugden is an enlightened being which he completely fails.
Ask any Sakya scholars today, they will tell you it’s an outright insult to say any of their Sakya masters like Virupa or Sakya Pandita reincarnated as Shugden or were emanated by the Shugden Vajradhara.
No, Shugden has always been a worldly spirit in the history of Sakyas until the holy company of Pabongkha-Trijang changed their mind. In other words, the ordinary/supreme dichotomy of the Shugden was a recent fabrication by Pabongkha, and never once existed in the Sakyas.
It’s also the point of contention between the 13th Dalai Lama and Pabongkha because before Pabongkha, Shugden was nothing more than a minor spirit in the Gelug pantheon after its migration from Sakya.
Best
Shaza
shaza // June 29, 2008 at 1:19 am |
Hi Ron
Point taken.
[You may be right that his stance on Shugden is an attempt to protect the Gelugpa rather than to destroy it. I don’t know. It’s an angle I hadn’t considered. However, I’m not sure he’s going to succeed. Many are probably practicing Shugden in secret, and will come out of the closet when he leaves the scene.
Also, I’m not sure it’s a position he needed to take.]
I do share your misgivings about how it’s gonna unfold and I am sure many Shugdenites are gonna practice in secret despite all that…
but then it was exactly because of Dalai’s stance that many started to learn about the controversy and made it possible for people to take what you call a “safe option” at all. People are also starting to learn that there are indeed traditional teachings of Tsongkhapa that are not revised by Pabongkha.
Whether GKG could touch other teachings is really his problem. I don’t have much to say with his allegiance to Pabongkha’s curriculum whether you call that true Gelug teachings. All I was just trying to demonstrate is his possible duplicity over the issue ie. he knew Shugden was sectarian all along while feigning ignorance for so many years.
And looking at Cheyenne’s comment earlier, why does GKG thinks it’s “no longer appropriate” to teach (or practice?) Sok Te when it was perfectly OK before?
Is he trying to “come clean” now so Shugden will not face further charges or possible imprisonment?
It’s not my intention to ridicule GKG. I am just trying to show that the Shugden worship has a huge credibility problem that GKG is scrambling to salvage.
Best
Shaza
Ron // June 29, 2008 at 2:48 am |
Hi Shaza
I will say in all honesty that I truly believe GKG is entirely convinced that Shugden is a buddha. On the nature of Shugden’s sectarianism, he has expressed the view that the Yellow Book is superstitious nonsense.
I suspect that he might now deem the Life Entrustment initiation inappropriate because he now lives in the West – a social context completely different from the one in which all these tensions and issues developed. The values of his new world are entirely different, and perhaps his own values have changed as a consequence. Old Tibet is gone and so has its political conflicts, most of its sectarian rivalries and much of its medieval world view. For all those reasons, he may now think a Life Entrustment is no longer needed or desirable.
It’s a whole new world, after all.
I think this is more likely than the implausible possibility that he’s suddenly woken up to the real nature of Shugden.
I think the fact that he’s lent his voice and his energy to renewed demonstrations on the Shugden issue shows his conviction on this is as strong as ever.
shaza // June 29, 2008 at 5:39 am |
Hi Ron,
[I think this is more likely than the implausible possibility that he’s suddenly woken up to the real nature of Shugden.]
So you agree GKG knew about the sectarian nature of Shugden all along then?
I am sure he wanted to have it both ways. But now he looks all set to break with Trijang’s teachings (eg Yellow Book + Sok Te) in order to establish his Shugden cult on a more “modern” footing.
Shugden IS sectarian. It really doesn’t matter whether GKG himself is sectarian or not and whether he himself really “believes” Shugden is sectarian or not.
But then I suspect GKG knew that the Shugden practice passed on from Pabongkha is sectarian but simply feigned ignorance. Because he. . .
Makes excuses for Shugden and Pabongkha’s sectarianism:
“In the same way if Je Phabongkhapa, through his dreams and other indications stopped certain practices, including some Nyingma practices, then this was his choice. It may be that in his dreams he felt Dorje Shugden was telling him to stop some of his Nyingma practices, but this does not imply that Dorje Shugden does not like the Nyingma tradition. It merely indicates that Je Phabongkhapa had no karmic connection with the Nyingma tradition. If there is no karmic connection with a particular practice, then you will not receive any good results. So please do not misunderstand. It is possible that Je Phabongkhapa encouraged some of his disciples to stop their Nyingma practice, but again it does not mean that Je Phabongkhapa was telling them that Nyingma practice is not pure, but to encourage them to concentrate on their own tradition. Teachers of all traditions and all religions encourage their people to concentrate on their own tradition. There is nothing wrong in this.” (Geshe Kelsang Gyatso, talk.religion.buddhism, 19 December 1997)
Now, we know through Pabongkha’s letters that when he was in power, he was violent against other non-Gelug orders, including turning many Nyingma monasteries into Gelug ones by force. It was very unlikely that GKG did not know about it. So you see, GKG did believe some of those stories but chose to explain away the dirty parts.
And I strongly suspect GKG is sectarian because he …
Slanders the Dalai Lama for not being a PURE Gelug:
“According to the information that I have received from authentic sources, when the Dalai Lama first began to engage in Nyingma practices, it was HH Ling Rinpoche who tried to discourage him, strongly advising him against these practices. This does not mean that HH Ling Rinpoche was saying that the Nyingma practices are not good, but he felt that it was an affront to the Gelugpas, indicating that their practice was not a complete path. Until that time the Dalai Lama had been pure Gelugpa, and now he was changing; this was not a good indication for the Gelug tradition. There is no criticism implied that Nyingma practice is not pure.” (Geshe Kelsang Gyatso, talk.religion.buddhism, 19 December 1997)
It’s purely sectarian logic to say that taking Nyingma teachings will keep one from being a pure Gelug.
Best
Shaza
Cheyenne // June 29, 2008 at 6:39 am |
Shaza,
[Taking refuge in a spirit has no place in Buddhism and you break your vows and stop being a Buddhist. The fact that people is still confused over this issue means more affirmative action is required.]
I go for refuge to the three jewels, Buddha Dharma & Sangha, the definition of a Buddhist.
For me DS is a Buddha (Manjushri) for me DS functions as a Buddha. So my refuge is correct in that context.
If you regard DS as a spirit then for you he functions as a spirit so don’t take refuge, no problem for me and no problem for you. The problem is when YOU tell me I am wrong! And that I am not a Buddhist!
Do Buddhas exist from their own side independently? Nothing exists from its own side independently.
For something to exist conventionally it must be imputed upon a valid basis; for me DS is Manjushri imputed upon a valid basis (lineage derived from Manjushri).
For you this is incorrect as you don’t see this lineage as Valid.
Trijang (who was Ganden Tripa), is the root Guru of almost, if not all Gelugpas & Pabongka was his Guru, if they are wrong then there is no valid Gelugpa lineage.
Lineage is all important without lineage there are no valid blessing and there can be no progression upon the path. Reliance upon the SG is not based upon blind faith but upon valid reasoning and valid experience… for me I have this experience and for me I can rely upon my Guru and his Guru with valid experience. You must rely your upon your Guru established via your own experience. What is OK for me is OK for me, what is OK for you is OK for you. The problem arises when you say what I do is not OK, this is your view not my view… we don’t get realisations from reading books and studying history, we get realisations from meditating upon Dharma and receiving blessings. I can only know my realisations at the moment, not yours, but I can say from my own meditation and realisations DS is a Buddha, what your view is your view.
Cheyenne
Cheyenne // June 29, 2008 at 7:20 am |
Shaza,
[It’s purely sectarian logic to say that taking Nyingma teachings will keep one from being a pure Gelug]
——
From Cambridge dictionary.
Sectarian noun [C], adjective MAINLY DISAPPROVING
(A person) strongly supporting a particular religious group, especially in such a way as not to be willing to accept other beliefs
——–
Practicing pure Gelugpa teachings alone is not sectarian, it is only sectarian if the Gelugpa disapproves of or does not accept others beliefs. This is not the case for DS practitioners and is certainly not what GKG teaches. GKG has said many times that Nyingmas have a complete path.
There are many paths up a mountain, some easy and quick, some more difficult. If we try to take many paths up a mountain at the same time we may find ourselves going around in circles or not making much progress to the top.
Paths are paths because the lead somewhere. All Tibetan traditions are complete paths.
I personally will take the path I am familiar with and where I can visualise the complete journey.
For me Nyingma path (or any other valid path) is just a distraction from my Gelugpa path. This doesn’t make me sectarian. I could sit alongside a Nyingma meditator, with him meditating upon his path, and me meditating upon my path. Both his path and my path are internal paths, leading to the same result, freedom from suffering for all living beings. I can rejoice in his practice and he can rejoice in my practice.
GKG sister was married to a Nyingma practitioner and he & GKG used to do practice together, GKG did his practice and his brother in law did hid practice, wonderful.
Cheyenne
shaza // June 29, 2008 at 8:32 am |
Hi Cheyenne
[For you this is incorrect as you don’t see this lineage as Valid.]
You are right I don’t. Especially with the Shugden practice.
[Trijang (who was Ganden Tripa), is the root Guru of almost, if not all Gelugpas & Pabongka was his Guru, if they are wrong then there is no valid Gelugpa lineage.]
You must be kidding me. No wonder some NKTers thinks they are the real Gelugs…
Who is Kirti Tsenshab if not one of the oldest and most respected Gelug Lamas who was completely independent from Pabongkha’s lineage?
[Lineage is all important without lineage there are no valid blessing and there can be no progression upon the path. Reliance upon the SG is not based upon blind faith but upon valid reasoning and valid experience… for me I have this experience and for me I can rely upon my Guru and his Guru with valid experience.]
The reasoning part is flawed as I have been trying to tell you all along. So it’s blind faith. But the experience part I frankly don’t know. So to give you the benefit of the doubt you are probably half-right.
But then the chances of getting any right realizations from deluded gurus with the wrong intentions are … I don’t know.
Well I am not 100% sure if GKG is sectarian but he did condemn the Dalai Lama for receiving the Nyingma teachings. So you tell me if GKG is “willing to accept other beliefs” accd to your dictionary defination?
But then I am pretty sure Trijang was sectarian given what he wrote in Sok Te.
Trijang wrote, “This protector of the doctrine is extremely important for holding Tsongkhapa’s tradition without mixing and corrupting it with confusions due to the great violence and the speed of the force of his actions, which fall like lightning to punish violently all those beings who have wronged the Yellow Hat Tradition, whether they are high or low. This protector is also particularly significant with respect to the fact that many from our own side, monks or lay people, high or low, are not content with Tsongkhapa’s tradition, which is like pure gold, and have mixed and corrupted this tradition with the mistaken views and practices from other schools, which are tenet systems that are reputed to be incredibly profound and amazingly fast but are in reality mistakes among mistakes, faulty, dangerous and misleading paths.”
Please see post #75 for full quote.
So what do you think about this?
Or Trijang’s words do not exist from their own side and it’s OK to be sectarian then?
Best
Shaza
Ron // June 29, 2008 at 5:42 pm |
Hi Shaza
You must be aware of the 4 seals. If not, I’ve pasted something I googled for your quick edification. Please feel free to read and comment upon. You see, GKG and the NKT do abide by all four of these seals. So it doesn’t matter if you or others of your persuasion call them “non-buddhist” does it? As Lord Buddha already devised a system whereby people would be able to tell independently whether or not they followed the path of the Buddha. Enjoy:
Buddhism is distinguished by four characteristics, or “seals.” Actually, if all these four seals are found in a path or a philosophy, it doesn’t matter whether you call it Buddhist or not. You can call it what you like; the words “Buddhist” or “Buddhism” are not important. The point is that if this path contains these four seals, it can be considered the path of the Buddha.
Therefore, these four characteristics are called “the Four Seals of Dharma.” They are:
All compounded things are impermanent.
All emotions are painful. This is something that only Buddhists would talk about. Many religions worship things like love with celebration and songs. Buddhists think, “This is all suffering.”
All phenomena are empty; they are without inherent existence. This is actually the ultimate view of Buddhism; the other three are grounded on this third seal.
The fourth seal is that nirvana is beyond extremes.
Without these four seals, the Buddhist path would become theistic, religious dogma, and its whole purpose would be lost. On the other hand, you could have a surfer giving you teachings on how to sit on a beach watching a sunset: if what he says contains all these four seals, it would be Buddhism. The Tibetans, the Chinese, or the Japanese might not like it, but teaching doesn’t have to be in a “traditional” form.
Ron // June 29, 2008 at 6:13 pm |
Hi Shaza
I rather like the subject of religious, theistic dogma that was raised in the quote I cut and pasted above. You see, some of the terminology you’ve used reminds me of it. Things like – “heretical”. My goodness, I thought that word had died somewhere in Europe at the end of the Dark Ages.
The most interesting thing about that word is that it was frequently used in the Reformation and Counter Reformation when the Catholic Church was accusing thousands of dissenting Christians of witchcraft. Coincidence? I think not. There’s not a lot of difference between calling someone a ‘witch’ and calling them a ‘heretic’. It’s just another means of coersion and control.
It’s an unfortunate word to use and I would recommend you stop using it in educated forums and other western religious circles as people will draw the unfortunate but perhaps not irrelevant conclusion that persecutors and critics of Shugden are behaving rather like the Spanish Inquisition.
Also, your comparison of the Dalai Lama with the Pope. An unfortunate comparison. We all know we’ve had a lot of very nasty and naughty Popes who appear to have had very little interest in spiritual matters and a great deal of interest in worldly matters. Fortunately, chirstendown cast off the yoke of absolute papal authority centuries ago, and for a lot of very good reasons. Oddly enough, the period that ushered in this newer and freer mode of thinking became known as “The Enlightenment”.
I think you sometimes speak the language of extremism and dogma. That’s not to say that nothing you’ve said is worth listening to. However, those are not qualities I am personally looking to introduce into my practice.
It also reinforces the fact that Tibetan Buddhism, for all its many gems and wonders, is actually quite medieval in many ways. I think it has a lot to offer personally, but some of that thinking needs to modernised.
And I guess that applies to both sides of this particular debate.
I hope this post wasn’t too direct. It seems we are not on opposite sides of the fence. However, we are probably not ever going to be on the same side of the fence either.
Regards
Ron
kangroos make good eatin // June 29, 2008 at 8:35 pm |
if my karma runs over my dogma due i get a rebate on my debate?
shaza // June 29, 2008 at 8:49 pm |
Hi Ron,
Thx for your input.
Yes, when I used “heretic”, I did mean to be provocative. But I’ll gladly use “non-Buddhist” if you think it’s more apt.
When I used the Pope analogy, I clearly had in mind the dirty politics in the kashag during the reigns of various Dalai Lamas when they were under the control of power hungry regents. So my Pope analogy stands. Let’s not throw out a good Pope with his stingy bath water, please.
Now I know you don’t like my language. But then you haven’t half-addressed the objections that I raised aside from that, have you?
And which part of the spirit worship of Shugden accords with the Four Seals?
That we appreciate the impermance of all things and take refuge in a sentient being? You must be kidding me.
Best
Shaza
Ron // June 30, 2008 at 3:41 pm |
Yes, that ’s right, I’m kidding you.
Ha ha.
Actually, no I’m not. I’m satisifed that the NKT adheres to the 4 seals, whether or not they propitiate Shugden.
There are many many Buddhist practices that aren’t included in the scope of the 4 seals but we don’t deny that those practitioners are Buddhist. For intance, how is the Kalachakra Initiation included in the 4 seals?
So you see, that argument is just silly.
I’m not saying the NKT don’t need to be seriously questioned about some of their policies.
But I do think they’re Buddhist.
Also, when an NKT class begins they don’t do a prayer to the 4 jewels. They don’t take refuge in Buddha, Dharma, Sangha and Shugden.
So perhaps we also need to discuss exactly what “taking refuge” in something means and whether it’s fair to say that Shugden practitioners “take refuge” in Shugden. Shugden is their means of taking deeper refuge in the dharma jewel, isn’t it? So how can it be considered a separate refuge?
Anyway, it’s complex. And I’m not sure I have that answer. But if you have one that is a genuine solution to that particular conundrum, and not just a comeback because you have something against Shugden, please let me know.
Thanks for the debate. At least it’s been conducted on a gentlemanly note.
Regards
Ron
Ron // July 1, 2008 at 12:28 am |
Finally
I think the questions you’ve raised which I haven’t addressed really apply to Pabongka and sectarianism.
I don’t know enough about that subject and so can’t argue with you on that. However, it appears none of the allegations against Pabongka are cut and dry and I know of some very learned practitioners who attest that there is no hard evidence against Pabongka on the allegations of violence against the Nyingma. Nothing that would stand up in a modern court as beyond “a reasonable doubt” anyway.
I haven’t studied it, and don’t know enough about it. But Robert Thomas and others claim that the case against Pabongka is far from conclusive. Of course, I’m not saying they’re right. I don’t know. But I am trying to keep an open mind on it.
What is interesting is that many of his suriviving written works are explicitly non-sectarian, and it’s openly stated in the text. I’m reading “Liberation in the Palm of Your Hand” at the moment and can attest to that and will find a quote or two for you if you wish.
However, I’m no Pabongka expert. And it’s true his perspective may have changed later. Again, I don’t know.
Others (Robert Thomas from the Kadampa Chat forum, for one) would certainly be able to give you a better run for your money in any discussion on Pabongka.
Which it why I didn’t directly debate that with you.
Regards
Ron
shaza // July 1, 2008 at 6:47 am |
Hi Ron,
[Anyway, it’s complex. And I’m not sure I have that answer. But if you have one that is a genuine solution to that particular conundrum, and not just a comeback because you have something against Shugden, please let me know.]
Well, it has always been about the validity of Shugden worship, right? In fact, I was never very keen on condemning NKT for their part but unfortunately the acronmyns continue to pop up in a Shugden debate.
Problem is, contrary to what Pabongkha claimed, Je Tshongkhapa had never enlisted the help of Shugden to start with. So dropping it right now is the best practice and genuine solution.
You can say that, no, Pabongkha didn’t think so and installed the sectarian Shugden as Gelug’s major protector. But now some “modern day” Shugdenite like GKG denied Trijang’s words that Shugden was ever sectarian and even wanted to revised that part of the lineage.
In that case, I can only think of two ways out of it.
Either
1) Accept Trijang and Pabongkha were deluded when they taught that Shugden was sectarian. And Shugden followers like GKG has the authority to come to Shugden’s rescue and has the right to purge his teachers’ teachings to paint the picture of the truly harmless Shugden (if there’s one at all).
Or
2) Continue to venerate Shugden as a
sectarian “Buddha”, deluded “wisdom deity” or whatever oxymoron they like.
Some seem to be advocating a third option i.e. venerate Shugden as nice chap in one’s own imputation empty of inherent existence.
One might as well write their own Sutras or Tantras if this is allowed. And I won’t be surprised many are already writing it as of now because there’s no shortage of people believing “I think he’s a Buddha and therefore he is” kinda thing.
And yes, it was silly to use only the 4 seals to measure a tantric practice but it’s exactly how many Shugdenites today would resort to as a fall back argument and justify their practice of Shugden.
Sadly, falling back on the Sutric views of the 4 seals and 2 truths do not seem to work here. And if Trijang’s futile attempt to justify the practice in “Music Delighting the Ocean of Protectors” is an example, the tantric reasons are also lacking for the Shugden worship.
So you see. Shugden as a “non-sectarian benign & fully enlightened dharma protector” is just a recent fabrication. I don’t know what Shugdenites do verbally in their refuge but if the intention is to rely on a spirit as Buddha, deity or a wisdom protector, then one breaks the refuge vows all the way to the top. Tell me if it’s a proper object of refuge for the Buddhists. We don’t take refuge in the three gems for no reason at all and we do not need Shugden to help us in that.
…………………………………………
[I think the questions you’ve raised which I haven’t addressed really apply to Pabongka and sectarianism.]
Not totally.
My points of contention are as much about Trijang as they are about his teacher Pabongka. My problems are about what Trijang wrote in Sok Te, his arguments made in “Music Delighting…” and his stories told in the Yellow Book.
I hope there is enough proof, beyond a reasonble doubt, that Shugden was meant to be a sectarian spirit and what’s worse is that Trijang endorsed it.
Trijang was a major link of the modern Shugden revival and so happened to be the fountain head of most shugdenites today. Unless you don’t think Trijang matters, has no right to represent Pabongkha’s lineage, then you’ll probably have no problem disowning him from the Gelug in the name of modernization.
Sometimes, abandoning a rotten practice is way better than patching it up.
PS. You know, I enjoyed reading Liberation in the Palm of Your Hand so much that I gave it as a gift to a friend more than a decade ago.
Just want to say by condemning the Shugden practice, one does not need to discredit everything in the lineage. Despite many criticisms of Trijang and Pabongkha from other schools, it’s incredible that the Dalai Lama continues to have many good things to say about them.
Best
Shaza
Ron // July 1, 2008 at 3:01 pm |
Ok, thanks for that. It was very informative.
As I’m not a Shugden practitioner I can listen to what you say without feeling all that threatened.
However, I’m not a Shugdentite, but all my teachers are and so is virtually my entire Sangha community. So am I a Buddhist taught by non-Buddhists?
Am I the only Buddhist in my Sangha community? That would seem absurd.
And even though I don’t venerate Shugden, I do Quick Path pujas. Is my Vajrayogini practice completely invalid? Or am I venerating Shugden without knowing it?
GKG is certainly my root guru, and Trijang and Pabongka are clearly my lineage gurus. As they were with the Dalai Lama too.
Were does all this put us?
Is my practice a sham? Because if it is, it seems it’s the same for countless others in this lineage.
Regards
Ron
PS. I speak hypothetically, of course. This is not a case of me unconditionally accepting your position.
Ron // July 1, 2008 at 9:55 pm |
Hi Shaza
I’ve always been in complete agreement with those who don’t think practicing Shugden is necessary. So I’ve never done it.
No problemo. Or so I thought.
And that’s allowed me to keep my Buddhist friends at the FPMT and elsewhere.
My main practices are Lam Rim and Vajrayogini. But it’s been suggested that in Tantra one needs a dharma protector (You need all three – yidam, guru and dharma protector apparently). This I did not know, so I took Vy/Heruka empowerments with the understanding that this didn’t have anything to do with Shugden. Indeed, it’s been suggested here somewhere that one can’t do Vy without Shugden. If this is true (and I’m hoping somehow it isn’t), this practice I’m deriving such pleasure and benefit out of is at best completely useless and at worst liable to land me in some sort of hell.
What do you suggest I do about that?
I have an option, it seems:
Either 1) I stop Vy (and probably break my samaya and incur root downfalls)
or 2) I start propitiating Shugden.
In other words, either way I’m going to hell. Whose hell do I want to go to – GKG’s or the Dalai Lama’s?
Or do I just adopt a pragmatic western approach and conclude that these Tibetans are just crazy, that it’s all in the mind anyway, and that I should just continue as usual?
This is the option I’m more inclined to go with.
Ron
shaza // July 1, 2008 at 10:47 pm |
Hi Ron,
Your worries are well-founded.
Just be grateful we have come this far with connecting with Buddhism and then move on is my own two cents. The path is indeed a stumbling path.
The “all or nothing” position is not necessary and doesn’t impress me much. There are many alternatives if one seriously looks for them. FPMT has certainly worked its way around the problems given the options and lineages they have.
And those who are not satisfied with Pabongkha’s revisionism do go to take those empowerments from another lineage. They are widely available today. And it’s a personal choice and one that’s worth considering.
I won’t be surprised those who lead your practices and those who are practicing with you are secretly invoking Shugden, so you are most definitely involved whether you are venerating him in secret or not.
[Indeed, it’s been suggested here somewhere that one can’t do Vy without Shugden. If this is true (and I’m hoping somehow it isn’t), this practice I’m deriving such pleasure and benefit out of is at best completely useless and at worst liable to land me in some sort of hell.]
You are right it isn’t.
The special protector has always been Cittipatti/Kinkara from Sakyapas onwards, even GKG taught that. So whoever told you it is Shugden is just spreading indoctrination for obvious reasons. Vy practice does not need Shugden and is way better without him. So don’t lose faith in Vy just because you were not properly taught.
And just say if you seriously don’t want to have anything to do with the teacher and sangha, simply return your samayas to GKG (if you had received any HYT from him personally), saying you are grateful for his teachings but don’t want to be his student anymore and receive the empowerments from other Gelug teachers like Lama Zopa etc.
Of course my personal take would be a little more drastic: seek out Vy empowerment from the Sakyapa lineage (widely available today) from HH Sakya Trizin and his sister Jetsunma etc.
Best
Shaza
Ron // July 1, 2008 at 11:55 pm |
Thanks Shaza
You’ve certainly given me something to think about.
Regards
Ron
shaza // July 2, 2008 at 12:20 am |
just passing on some thoughts mulled over by many others before me
hope it helps
^^
Namdrol // July 4, 2008 at 6:32 am |
Sakya Pandita states that, no one will eat poison unless it is mixed with wholesome food. Poisoned food, no matter how wholesome in appearance, when eaten will cause illness and death.
Since there is no way to separate the wholesome food from the poison, once it is poisoned, the only thing left to do is throw it away.
Likewise, the Dharma presented by NKT, though wholesome upon superficial examination, is contaminated through and through with the poison of the practice of the Gyalpo spirit, Shugden.
Ron // July 4, 2008 at 5:09 pm |
Hi Namdrol
Sounds like you know a lot about poison.
monkees ~ not just for people any more // July 5, 2008 at 2:37 pm |
pizza n beer
lyin n sex
polytix n prostrations
poppin pills n suckin swills
warehouse the old n rip up their wills
zounds like poy-zen 2 me
they partake of the nectar essence through single pronged vajras which are straws of light
suckin it down n spewin it out ~ is that a baby in your bathwater or r u just glad to c me?
dspak08 // July 15, 2008 at 12:28 pm |
I would like to respond to post #108.
1. One interesting irony of him quoting Sakya Pandita is he is a previous incarnation of none other than our good friend Dorje Shugden. So if Sakya Pandita is a qualified source, then surely the Dharma that the later incarnation of Sakya Pandita (namely Dorje Shugden) protects must also be good.
2. In the past, the Dalai Lama wrote praises and forwards for Geshe Kelsang’s books, and listed them in his suggested reading lists. The words in Geshe Kelsang’s books have not changed, only the politics surrounding those words has changed. If it was pure Buddhism then, it is pure Buddhism now. The NKT practiced Dorje Shugden then, it practices it now. How can something that was once good suddenly transform into bad?
3. If the whole of the Dharma taught by the NKT should be thrown out due to their involvement with Dorje Shugden, then the same should be true with Trijang Rinpoche and Je Phabongkhapa. If they are thrown out, then Lama Yeshe, Lama Zopa (in other words the entire FPMT), Gonsar Rinpoche and none other than the Dalai Lama should also be thrown out. Indeed, all Gelugpas derive, directly or indirectly, from Trijang Rinpoche and Je Phabongkhapa. Thus if you follow your logic to its natural conclusion, the entire Gelugpa lineage should be thrown out.
4. If you claim to supposedly represent the position of non-sectarianism, then why do you seek to criticise other traditions? Is not the beating heart of non-sectarianism respecting other traditions? By branding all those who do not mix traditions sectarian, you are, in effect, creating a ’sect of the non-sectarian.’ Non-sectarianism does not necessarily mean practicing all traditions, it means respecting all traditions. A truly non-sectarian approach would be one where some choose to mix traditions, some choose to follow one tradition purely without mixing, and we all respect one another’s choices. This is all Dorje Shugden practitioners are asking – to be left alone to practice as they choose, free from outside undue interference.
5. Final question for you: you have bodhisattva vows, which include not criticising another Mahayana tradition. Why do you choose to spend your time publicly breaking your bodhisattva vows? Since your intention in posting your comment was for the whole world to see your views, have you not created the karma of criticising another tradition millions and millions of times? Think about it…
dspak08
Harlan // July 15, 2008 at 5:03 pm |
Hi dspak08
I hate to suddenly turn into arguing against Shugden practitioners, because I think you should just be left in peace, but these arguments are not convincing. You need to do more homework. For instance:
1) It seems Shugden first appeared in the Sakya ‘pantheon’ as a worldly spirit. So he could not have reincarnated from Sakya Pandita. This is not convincing. It seems invented.
2) No-one’s arguing that GKG’s books aren’t splendidly written buddhist works, but neither do his books deal with Dorje Shugden (other than Heart Jewel, and the Dalai Lama certainly never endorsed that one).
3) It seems it’s not true that all Gelugpas derive from Phabongka and Trijang, though the vast majority do. Also, it’s claimed that Tragda, the 2nd Regent, is the Dalai’s Root Guru, not Trijang. The Dalai Lama also had other teachers. On top of that, he’s openly stated that just because he rejects Trijang/Phabongka’s stance on Shugden does not mean he rejects everything they taught.
4)Not all anti-Shugdenites are criticising the entire tradition, just Shugden worship, and therefore Phabongka’s interpretation of things. Yeah, some reject the “NKT cult” outright, but not everybody’s that blindly dismissive. I think Namdrol’s poison remark probably puts him in a “fundamentalist” framework (it seems very much the same sort of obsession with ‘purity’ that leads others to call the NKT fundamentalist; on the other hand, he may just be pissed off because the NKT have marked him as public enemy no. 6; it would piss me off, so I can’t blame him if he is). However, even th Dalai Lama seems to maintain that there is still much to be salvaged from the teachings of Trijang and Phabongka;
5)I think you’re probably right on this one, but some may argue that you’re not buddhists because you’ve taken refuge in a worldly spirit. I don’t believe that. I also don’t believe you ‘take refuge’ in Shugden and I think it would be better for you to argue on this basis.
I mention these things only because I know Namdrol’s position from eSangha and these are points he’s raised there in stating his position (and eSangha’s) on Shugden. I’m not an expert on this. But Namdrol certainly seems to be.
I repeat: I’m not against your practice. I personally don’t believe it’s a harmful practice. However, I don’t think your arguments hold much water. As a consequence, I don’t practice Shugden myself. I just wish you guys would investigate the matter more rather than simply accept everything on blind faith. You choose to believe the things that suit you, I’m afraid.
Harlan
shaza // July 16, 2008 at 3:16 am |
Hi Harlan,
[I think Namdrol’s poison remark probably puts him in a “fundamentalist” framework (it seems very much the same sort of obsession with ‘purity’ that leads others to call the NKT fundamentalist; on the other hand, he may just be pissed off because the NKT have marked him as public enemy no. 6; it would piss me off, so I can’t blame him if he is).]
don’t worry, I don’t think Namdrol will ever get emotional over this pettiness.
He’s been marked public enemy by all walks of life from time immemorial and that didn’t bother him.
Best
Shaza
Namdrol // July 16, 2008 at 6:15 am |
“1. One interesting irony of him quoting Sakya Pandita is he is a previous incarnation of none other than our good friend Dorje Shugden.
This is a complete fantasy, and a total fabrication. Sakya Pandita had only one incarnation i.e. as the Buddha Vimalashri in the Golden World system. There are no subsequent incarnations of Sakya Pandita.
“2. In the past, the Dalai Lama wrote praises and forwards for Geshe Kelsang’s books, and listed them in his suggested reading lists. The words in Geshe Kelsang’s books have not changed, only the politics surrounding those words has changed. If it was pure Buddhism then, it is pure Buddhism now. The NKT practiced Dorje Shugden then, it practices it now. How can something that was once good suddenly transform into bad?”
The practice of Dolgyal as conceived by Pabhongkha was never good, and was always a deviant practice in his hands. Forwards writtten by His Holiness for books composed in the early eighties are not relevant now.
“3. If the whole of the Dharma taught by the NKT should be thrown out due to their involvement with Dorje Shugden, then the same should be true with Trijang Rinpoche and Je Phabongkhapa. If they are thrown out, then Lama Yeshe, Lama Zopa (in other words the entire FPMT), Gonsar Rinpoche and none other than the Dalai Lama should also be thrown out. Indeed, all Gelugpas derive, directly or indirectly, from Trijang Rinpoche and Je Phabongkhapa. Thus if you follow your logic to its natural conclusion, the entire Gelugpa lineage should be thrown out.”
It is an exaggeration to state that the whole Gelug transmission depends on Pabhongkha. If this were true, it would be a pity. In fact, there are whole lines of transmission in Gelug, still vital and strong, that have nothing to do with Pabhongkha.
The Dalai Lama certainly has lines of transmission from Pabhongkha, nevertheless, a highly realized master like His Holiness is capable of purifying errors in a lineage so the transmissions from him, regardless of whether they came through Pabhongkha or not, have been restored to the their purity.
Lama Zopa, Geleg Rinpoche and so on are disciples of His Holiness, therefore the fault you describe are not valid. Since Gonsar Rinpoche and others choose to turn their backs on His Holiness, this is a pity for them.
In short, His Holiness, the 14th Dalai Lama, is the life force of the Gelugpa Lineage, indeed all of Tibetan Buddhism, and is the teacher of all Tibetan Buddhists. Whoever turns their back on him is someone who flees from the sun, seeking the comforting darkness of their own misconceptions.
“4. If you claim to supposedly represent the position of non-sectarianism, then why do you seek to criticise other traditions?…”
When someone’s neighbor is pouring garbage into a pure stream, does one not have the right to complain and do something about it? The practice of the gyalpo, Shugden, is an impure and corrupt practice that has soiled the pure stream of the Gelug tradition.
“5. Final question for you: you have bodhisattva vows, which include not criticising another Mahayana tradition. Why do you choose to spend your time publicly breaking your bodhisattva vows? Since your intention in posting your comment was for the whole world to see your views, have you not created the karma of criticising another tradition millions and millions of times?”
If someone chooses to remain silent about faulty views and practices that seek to infect Buddhadharma, knowing that they are wrong and based on fallacies, this is a violation of bodhisattva vows and would constitute a grave fault. Speaking up against fallacious practices like that of Gyalpo Shugden is proper bodhisattva activity. As Choje Sapan points out in Three Vows:
“To delight in false teachings…is impure diligence.”
There is no teaching more false then teaching that Gyalpo Shugden is a Buddha.
As Choje said in his “Letter to the Buddhas and Bodhisattvas”:
“I, too, have not taught with the intent of disparaging others, And yet, by teaching in accord without scriptural divisions, this has burned the religious traditions of others. When one lays down a straight plumb line, it annoys those having crooked shapes. In the same way, by establishing your teachings correctly, those followers of counterfeit doctrines are not pleased. I am without desire and aversion, but if, wishing to preserve the Doctrine, I speak truthfully, then the person I address becomes furious. If I speak falsely, it is a great evil.”
And in Three Vows:
“If to distinguish between true and false teachings is to be “hostility” and “jealousy”, then just how else are beings to be rescued from the ocean of samsara?”
Such people who view Gyalpo Shugden as a Buddha break the root of their refuge vows, not to mention their bodhisattva vows and Vajrayana vows. How can they be rescued if they are not shown the error of their teachings? Whatever you may think, I have nothing but altruistic concern for those who blindly follow false guides off of the cliffs of wrong views, and these days, chief among those wrong views is the wrong view that Gyalpo Shugden is a somehow a Buddha manifesting as a worldly spirit, or a Buddha in any sense at all.
Though these days I do not often speak on this matter, since their is little more than can or needs to be said by either side, in this instance it is important to respond to the increasing activities of the so called “New Kadampa Tradition” and their surrogate organizations, as well as their allies among those Tibetans who have turned their face away from the sun of His Holiness, the 14th Dalai Lama’s wisdom. Such actions by the NKT, their surrogate and their students are harmful to all people who live on this planet.
Because of blind faith, the students of NKT and those Tibetans who have abandoned His Holiness, The Dalai Lama, as their refuge and a protector have no idea what they are doing, and what they are playing with.
Of course, people are free, and if they wish to adopt the mistaken practices propagated those who follow Gyalpo Shugden, they may. And we who oppose this practice, are equally free to speak out against it.
Namdrol // July 16, 2008 at 6:23 am |
“…he may just be pissed off because the NKT have marked him as public enemy no. 6; it would piss me off, so I can’t blame him if he is).]”
Are you kidding? It means that my writings on this subject are effective and have the intended result i.e. turning people away from this mistaken practice.
monkees ~ not just for people any more // July 16, 2008 at 6:51 pm |
“This is a complete fantasy, and a total fabrication. Sakya Pandita had only one incarnation i.e. as the Buddha Vimalashri in the Golden World system. There are no subsequent incarnations of Sakya Pandita.”
juicy ~ but I am pretty shure itzan inkanteyshun ov SP thatzbin showin up ona regular basis at the Golden Shower System wearin a pink feather boa ~ i shud no honey ~ keep on flamin! ~DS
Harlan // July 16, 2008 at 8:34 pm |
Yes, the NKT and WSS are free to demonstrate. The Dalai Lama is free to ignore them. The Dalai Lama’s supporters are free to criticise the demonstrators. The demonstrators are free to publish hit lists of their critics. The critics are free to respond with further criticism. Everybody is free to denounce everybody else. And all of this is being done for the benefit of all living beings. What a joke. Get me to a zendo.
“Man is born free and everywhere he is in chains.” – Rousseau
Namdrol // July 17, 2008 at 4:15 am |
“And all of this is being done for the benefit of all living beings. What a joke.”
Your apathy demonstrates you have little awareness of the gravity of the situation, and how pernicious this practice actually it, and how harmful to all of us it is.
N
Harlan // July 17, 2008 at 3:43 pm |
Hi Namdrol
If you mean that I’ve not been persuaded on your position, then you are right. It’s a bit presumptious to call this “apathy”, or to translate this into “little awareness”.
Harlan
Namdrol // July 17, 2008 at 3:44 pm |
If you understood the real situation, you would be persuaded.
Harlan // July 17, 2008 at 4:49 pm |
My mind is completely open on this. I’ve been a member of the NKT for 2 years, but I’ve never practiced Shugden. And with no small amount of peer pressure put on me. Which has to say something.
Namdrol // July 17, 2008 at 5:19 pm |
I am afraid that you don’t really have the equipment necessary to understand this issue in its fine detail on your own ( in other words, through no fault of your own, really, you do not have the proper amount of education in Tibetan language and history to make a proper and informed judgement). Suffice it to say that your situation is not good, and the longer you stay with NKT, the worse things will be.
High Lama after high Lama in all four schools have come out against this practice. Do you think your understanding can compare to theirs?
But if you choose of follow Kalsang Gyatso, you have only yourself to blame for the ill that will inevitably befall you, as it has so many other Shugden practitioners– even those who “never mix”.
N
Harlan // July 17, 2008 at 5:40 pm |
I’m not a Shugden practitioner.
Namdrol // July 17, 2008 at 5:53 pm |
You are in a lineage where the influence of this gyalpo is pervasive, everyone around you is practicing this– you are foolish if you think it has no effect upon you personally.
Namdrol // July 17, 2008 at 5:53 pm |
You are even more foolish you take empowerments from this Lama.
N
Namdrol // July 17, 2008 at 5:54 pm |
BTW, this is not personal– I would, and have said, the same thing to many people.
Harlan // July 17, 2008 at 6:00 pm |
Surely in Buddhism, intention is of the highest importance. I practice at the NKT, I have been at study programmes at the NKT, and still am technically, though this is due to end. But nothing related to Shugden. Nothing at all. That is understood there and by and large accepted. It makes me unusual in that regard there, but nowhere has GKG said I have to accept his dharma protector. So I haven’t. So I’m not sure what the problem is.
Harlan // July 17, 2008 at 6:22 pm |
I don’t mean to be blase, but without this lama, I would not have a dharma practice. The reality is I have empowerments with this lama. I choose to take my commitments seriously.
Namdrol // July 17, 2008 at 6:33 pm |
It really depends what kind of empowerments, if it is not Heruka or something like this, like Yamantaka, you are under no samaya obligation.
Even if you have, you still are under no obligation to stay. One can always, at any time, choose to leave and go elsewhere if there is a problem.
There are hundreds of qualified masters in all four schools.
N
harry // July 17, 2008 at 8:39 pm |
lazy buddhist,
thank you for posting openly and honestly. when i first came across the nkt 6 years ago i did some online research on the ds controversy. i was relieved of the need to do extensive research by the copious amounts of pretty nasty anti-nkt abuse and slander. Most of the discussions i read involved an nkt practitioner honestly trying to make open debate versus someone or other using very biased and harsh criticism against the nkt, sometimes issuing insults and jeers. i was only 19 and totally new to buddhism, but as far as my intuition could tell this anti group seemed totally un-buddhist (and was really disturbing my mind), so i decided to quit the research and to trust my newly-found sangha. 6 years later i am still an nkt-practioner and i have no major complaints about the tradition, quite contrarily i have recieved great support and been given tons of blessings. of course, i’ve had my moments. when the the recent demos began i was really upset so i began to do some more research. this time i’m glad i did, because i hadn’t realised the apparent extent of the dl’s actions (note: i am not against the dalai lama, and i am only going by what i personally found on the web). but again i came across a huge amount of anti-nkt stuff. i suppose what i’m trying to say is that all this hate stuff makes me believe more firmly in my people, and i would of thought that the purpose these people mean to achieve is the opposite. no doubt, if i have compassion for someone who is involved in a religious sect and i want to open their eyes to the truth the last thing i want to do is speak like an angry bullying teenager as this will have the opposite effect of that which is desired. this is the main reason why after much research i still choose to side with the nkt.
when i read all the hate mail i inmeaditely shut off to the ideas of the poster because i suspect they are under the influence of delusion and therefore unable to have a balanced view of the nkt. i don’t know how others feel about this, but i would imagine that these peoples efforts to awaken us to the reality that the nkt is evil (and all the rest) are sometimes causing the opposite effect. that’s what it does to me anyway.
sorry, bit long-winded! again thanks lazy buddhist for speaking openly and without hate
harry
Harlan // July 17, 2008 at 11:06 pm |
Yeah, Harry.
I know what you mean. But these recent demonstrations have really not gone down well with me. I think they suck buckets. I personally do not see the Dalai lama as the personification of evil. And I object enough to the way this campaign’s been conducted to start feeling that I’m not at all in step with this organisation. I’m not a Shugden practitioner, and don’t understand why the NKT and GKG have sacrificed so much for this arcane and, as I see it, quite dispensable practice. It’s all a bit much really.
Harlan // July 17, 2008 at 11:20 pm |
Hi Namdrol
I do have HYT empowerments (Heruka/Vajrayogini). I do have to maintain my samayas. Of course, that doesn’t mean I need to keep participating in the NKT if I choose to leave.
Namdrol // July 18, 2008 at 5:36 am |
“i suppose what i’m trying to say is that all this hate stuff…”
We don’t “hate” NKT.
We think your teacher is deluded and is leading you down a false path.
Because we have compassion for you, we are telling you that you are mistaken, that you are infected with a kind of spiritual disease, and that this disease will impeded your realization.
You folks are innocents when it comes to the history of Tibetan Buddhism, and have been spoon fed lies.
For example, it is an outright fabrication to assert that Choje Sakya Pandita has taken rebirth anywhere but in the world system Golden, where he became the Buddha Vimalashri.
For example, there are no reincarnations of Shakyamuni Buddha. There are no reincarnations of Vipashyin, Sikhin, Kashyapa or Kanakamuni. There are no reincarnations of Padmasambava, Milarepa, or Lama Tsongkhapa. There are no reincarnations of any of the these fully realized masters.
Sakya Pandita outwardly achieved the signs and marks and attained total realization of a tenth stage bodhisattva. In his next incarnation, he became a fully awakened Buddha, Vimalashri. Claiming that Sakya Pandita reincarnated as Buton, Panchen Sonam Dragpa, or any of these lesser scholars, is simply a mistake.
Sakya Pandita warns:
“…even common geshes are called Buddhas,
what is pleasing to poets will never please the wise.”
You have been caught up in the Indian and then Tibetan custom of poetic hyperbole. Since you have no basis in a good education in Tibetan and Indian Buddhist literature, you have been caught unawares, and take literally things which no soundly educated Tibetan or Indian Buddhist would take literally.
Another outright fabrication is the assertion that Gyalpo Shugden, a worldly spirit, is an emanation of Manjushri. You even misread the remarks of Sakya masters concerning the nature of this gyalpo. The so-called praise written by the great Fifth is a blatant forgery.
It is true that the Dalai Lama used to practice an amendment rite, but he did so without understanding the nature of his relationship with Dogyal. He also never received a Shugden entrustment.
Moreover, the entrustment rite composed by Pabhongkha is explicitly sectarian, just as Pabhongkha was himself.
I know that your teacher has instructed you to ignore the Yellow Book, but what fool would actually deny that these words were truly spoken by Trijiang Rinpoche to his students? You have to imagine some massive fabrication on the part of Zemey Tulku. So in stead you just put your head in the sand, and seek to ignore what you do not want to comprehend i.e. that your protector is a wrathful and harmful being.
There are hundreds of accounts of the negative actions of Pehar, Shugden and all the protectors in the class of Gyalpos. There are many unenlightened protectors in all four schools. They are normally relied upon by powerful yogis. But your teacher is trying to whitewash this protector, Gyalpo Shugden, out of blind devotion.
There is at present no one more blind than Kalsang Gyatso. His assertion that none of the Lamas in the Yellow Book could be harmed by spirits because they have taken refuge in the Three Jewels is a naive lie told to placate you. Out of the 404 illnesses that can afflict sentient beings (there are actually many more, but they all fall in these categories), 101 of them are due to spirits. When these are condensed there are three kinds, male spirits, female spirits and genderless spirits like Nagas. Just as a Buddhist who has taken refuge can be harmed by another human being, so too can a Buddhist who has taken refuge be harmed by spirits when the causes and conditions are present. And you people, rather than taking pains to prevent such influence, welcome into your homes and hearts one of the most pernicious, pestilence-causing spirits ever in the history of Tibetan Buddhism.
What you fail to realize is that Gyalpos like Shugden and Pehar, are, among other things, practiced as protectors for political influence of large monasteries and high officials. But common people do not need such practices.
Shugden is not a wisdom protector, he is surrounded by pernicious ghosts, and his influence is not salutary, but is negative.
Someday you will wake up to this fact. I hope you do so soon, so you will not be trapped with Dolgyal in the bardo.
N
Namdrol // July 18, 2008 at 7:26 am |
Incidentally, it is impossible for Dulzin Dragpa Gyaltsen to be the reincarnation of Buton as well. Why?
Buton Rinchen Drup lived from 1290 to 1364.
Dulzin Dragpa Gyaltsen lived from 1350 to 1413.
kangroos make good eatin // July 18, 2008 at 11:21 am |
Namdrol Says:
July 17, 2008 at 3:44 pm
“If you understood the real situation, you would be persuaded.”
sew lettuce sea hear ~ reality = ultimate truth. ultimate truth = emptiness. emptiness = the lack of inherent existence.
o yeah – now I git it!
like we seyd b4 = karma aint really a bitch unless you mean a female dog the size of the uni verse. (with an infinite number of titties thatiz)
sew once again = people are dying ~ the whirld is a bucket of shit (that looks like a tittie so we keep suckin onit) ~ and without a spiritual guide of sum kinda color how wee ever gonna change anything other than chasin our tails in the udder die rekshun?
if we stood under the real situation then weed no more than we do witch iz kinda wear weez all tryin to git 2 n e ways ~ yes?
harry // July 18, 2008 at 11:54 am |
hi harlan,
there are some pretty strong accusations in some of the wss pamphlets, but i have never heard the nkt or the wss saying the dalai lama is the personification of evil. and i have certainly never heard any friend of mine within the nkt say anything of the sort. actually there was one guy from my centre who started saying nasty things about the dl but everyone else in the centre warned him not to be disrespectful.
“I’m not a Shugden practitioner, and don’t understand why the NKT and GKG have sacrificed so much for this arcane and, as I see it, quite dispensable practice”
with all respect, i don’t think it’s for you to decide what is and is not dispensable for a tradition to practice. you can only make up your own mind in respect to your own practice. if you don’t wish to practice dorje shugden that is fine, it is your right and there is nothing wrong with that.
may we all learn to live and let live (including nkt and wss people if we aren’t doing so already : )
harry
harry // July 18, 2008 at 12:45 pm |
hi namdrol,
interesting that you should take this personally, as i was referring more to posters like davcuts and avyorth. nevertheless your words, although not dripping with hate, have a similar effect on me:
“We think your teacher is deluded and is leading you down a false path.”
“Because we have compassion for you, we are telling you that you are mistaken, that you are infected with a kind of spiritual disease, and that this disease will impeded your realization.”
“Someday you will wake up to this fact. I hope you do so soon, so you will not be trapped with Dolgyal in the bardo.”
this is patronising and in the nature of insult. i ask you, do you go around the forums of all the different religions that you don’t agree with and spend your time trying to “wake them up” by exposing the faults of their doctrine to them? the dalai lama himself teaches to respect all traditions and to not go around criticizing them. i have never heard an nkt’er saying one bad thing about another tradition, let alone going around online forums trying to convince people that their tradition is rubbish!
“We think your teacher is deluded and is leading you down a false path.”
good for you. we also think the dalai lama is a bit off-centre, but we don’t condemn his whole being and tradition because of it. we rejoice in your faith in him and respect your wish to listen to him. we aren’t running around the forums trying to destroy his followers faith in him.
“Because we have compassion for you, we are telling you that you are mistaken, that you are infected with a kind of spiritual disease, and that this disease will impeded your realization.”
this is about the most patronising thing i’ve heard. not much to say really. i mean, how the hell do you know this? how do you know i’m not realised? i’m not realised, and not pretending to be, but how can you know that? it can only be one of two answers: 1 you know because you are a buddha, and 2 you don’t know because your mind is clouded with ignorance like mine, in which case your words are pretty arrogant. wow, some assumptions.
“Someday you will wake up to this fact. I hope you do so soon, so you will not be trapped with Dolgyal in the bardo.”
more of the same. i would hope such confidence arises from a direct perception of this fact.
i’m sorry, namdrol, if my own tone isn’t that calm, it’s just that i sometimes get a bit upset over these things. i suppose it’s a lesson on attachment to my views for me.
all the best,
harry
Namdrol // July 18, 2008 at 3:41 pm |
Harry:
“i’m not realised, and not pretending to be, but how can you know that?”
If you mistake a mundane being for a Buddha, your refuge will be false. Ergo, your realization will be impeded. If it is responded, “It is the case that even an unawakened Guru of Highest Yoga Tantra should be regarded as a Budda”;– this is true, however the circumstances are very different. In the former case one is making a simple attribution case, while in the latter, one is connected to the result with special methods through the (qualified) Guru from whom receives empowerment. Of course, if one’s Guru is not a qualified Guru, then there is no benefit from following their teachings at all in this or in future lives. Such Gurus send their students to vajra hell.
N
harry // July 18, 2008 at 4:32 pm |
do you see this everyone? this gentleman is choosing to let me know i am most certainly going to hell for being in the nkt, instead of answering my simple questions.
well thank you, namdrol, but life is hard enough without someone telling me that if i don’t quit my religion i shall go to hell. you’re out of order mate. it seems to me your motivation is to insult.
don’t waste your words, i have no intention of leaving the nkt. like i’ve said before nutters like you only make me take stronger refuge in my tradition. you sound like the inquisition. i was raised a catholic and have had a lot of all that already. we’re in the 21st century for goodness sake!
harry
Harlan // July 18, 2008 at 4:38 pm |
From the throne, my RT called the Dalai Lama a liar and a hypocrite who’s aim was to destroy the pure lineage of Je Tsongkhapa to increase his power. I’ve heard other unbelievable dimwitted and malevolent things said many times recently about the DL. You don’t have to call him evil directly to infer that he’s some kind of Darth Vader.
I’m inclined to let people practice what they want, including Shugden. After all, I’m in the NKT (though certainly on my way out). However, it’s entirely appropriate for me to question the NKT on this one. Continuing a practice that has alienated the rest of the Tibetan Buddhist world is not only sheer folly, it’s had many severe and negative consequences for many of the practictioners who have found themselves in the NKT, including me. It’s entirely appropriate for me to question why a practice that other gelugpas have found dispensable to the spritual practice is viewed as indispensable to our tradition. It becomes more appropriate to raise those questions the more you delve into it. It’s equally appropriate to start drawing attention to the fact that most people are inculcated into this practice at the NKT with no understanding and no information on it.
The consequences of this practice have been severely divisive, and have resulted in a great deal of trauma many many novice buddhists in the west. I deserve a few straightforward answers on some very shadowy issues surrounding it. And so does everyone else.
harry // July 18, 2008 at 4:38 pm |
if your next post is more anti-nkt stuff, i will not reply, as i seriously don’t want to get into one of these arguments that lead to nowhere. if you wish to slander my tradition please do not address the post to me.
thank you,
harry
harry // July 18, 2008 at 4:40 pm |
sorry harlan, that was for namdrol
harry // July 18, 2008 at 5:08 pm |
hi harlan,
you make a very fair point. it is of course everyones right to question and to research ones tradition, or any tradition. and specially when, like you say, many people are suffering from things that may be caused by the tradition. however i don’t know if you can blame the problems that are occurring on the practice itself. i mean the most obvious thing that springs to my mind are the current actions of the dalai lama. he is dividing his own country and trying to force people to abandon the practice. he has labelled us non-buddhists! are you saying that in order to be peace and harmony, we just need to let the lama have his way, and tell us what we must and must not do in our lives?
yes i agree that sometimes people go a bit too far in their speech (don’t we all), but i don’t think calling him a liar is neccesarily labelling him as evil. i personally respect the dalai lama, i think he has compassion and wisdom, and he has done a lot for the world. but i also think he is possibly human, and in the case of ds, behaving like a hipocrite and telling some little lies too. yet i don’t think he is evil! and i think most of the nkt people i’ve spoken to feel in a similar way, including some high profile people who have been in the front rows chanting at the demos.
unfortunately sometimes we become extreme in our views and this may be the case of some people you have spoken to. i have heard people say silly things too.
oh it’s all a bit of a palava isn’t it?
best,
harry
Namdrol // July 18, 2008 at 5:26 pm |
“I deserve a few straightforward answers on some very shadowy issues surrounding it.”
I have been giving people straight forward answers on the history and nature of the Shugden practice for many, many years now. I ought to know, I am a Sakyapa, and read Tibetan fluently.
I have pointed out many of the contradictions in statements made by exponents of this practice.
I have pointed out many facts about Pabhongkha’s incredibly sectarian behavior while he was governor of the Chamdo province in Tibet, facts which are to be found in his own collected works, edited by Trijiang Rinpoche.
It is well known that for his own purposes, Kalsang Gyatso has discarded the teaching of the Buddha and substituted his own “monastic” vows in place of the Buddha’s Vinaya, a completely unprecedented novelty that renders all of NKT “monks” and “nuns” lay people running around in robes– and this has the net effect of defrauding the public, and especially beginning Buddhists who do not know what a real monk or nun actually is.
I have pointed out even simple contradictions in the NKT Shugden story by pointing out that it is impossible for Buton to have reincarnated as Dulzin Dragpa Gyaltsen, since their lives overlapped for 14 years.
There are other contradictions one can find in the NKT story, such as the concept that the 15th century Sakya Lama Dagchen Lodo Gyaltsen was the first person to practice Shugden– which is impossible since he lived shortly after Tsongkhapa.
If anyone, with unblinded eyes, examines this new and perverted protector tradition, they will discover it is founded on a tissue of half-truths, fabrications and when necessary, outright lies as well as fear mongering. These things have been well documented by countless scholars, both within and without Gelugpa for the past three centuries.
Why today, I even ran across the laughable assertion that Dhonthog Tulku, the chief Sakya polemicist against this practice, considers Shugden a bodhisattva– I know Dhongthog Tulku, and I have read his works in English and in Tibetan, and this is an outright blatant lie. But the WSS and the NKT will stop at nothing in terms of fabricating outright lies.
People like Harry, et al, are not interested in the truth– they are merely following NKT in the same manner as football hooligans follow Manchester United, etc. They even have their own skinheads, albeit, dressed up in maroon and gold rather than boots and braces.
This is the Sangha to which you belong. Truthfully, your samaya vows are worth nothing since your Guru is not a qualified teacher.
N
Namdrol // July 18, 2008 at 5:35 pm |
Harry says:
“however i don’t know if you can blame the problems that are occurring on the practice itself.”
Of course one can– those problems and many more.
harry // July 18, 2008 at 6:06 pm |
namdrol,
can you please quit insulting me?
Namdrol // July 18, 2008 at 6:28 pm |
Harry:
I don’t call people names i.e. “nutters like you…”
It isn’t personal, even if I think your teacher is deluded man possessed by gyalpo spirit.
N
harry // July 18, 2008 at 7:03 pm |
fair enough, i’m sorry i called you a nutter.
but may i ask: if it’s not personal, then why why do you need to insult us?
for example “People like Harry, et al, are not interested in the truth they are merely following NKT in the same manner as football hooligans follow Manchester United, etc. They even have their own skinheads, albeit, dressed up in maroon and gold rather than boots and braces.”
“Someday you will wake up to this fact. I hope you do so soon, so you will not be trapped with Dolgyal in the bardo.”
anyone correct me if this is not scathing, insulting language.
why namdrol?
harry
LazyBuddhist // July 18, 2008 at 7:16 pm |
Hi guys –
Just a general reminder to keep it civil. This thread has a good history of respectful debate, and I ask that you please follow that trend. This is my personal blog, and do not wish to have fisticuffs breaking out here. I ask that everyone on all sides of the debate behave in a manner befitting our chosen faith of Buddhism.
Carry on.
Harlan // July 18, 2008 at 7:22 pm |
Namdrol
May I ask your opinion on something? If these fabrications are so evident to anyone who has access to the documents/primary evidence in Tibetan, how come Phabongka and Trijang were able to hoodwink the entire gelugpa establishment for half a century, or more? How come it took extensive research into old decaying hypotheses and histories for the 14th Dalai Lama and friends (I presume he had some scholarly assistance, such as the late Lobsang Gyatso, though I don’t really know) to uncover these untruths?
Namdrol // July 19, 2008 at 5:16 am |
Hi Harlan:
“May I ask your opinion on something? If these fabrications are so evident to anyone who has access to the documents/primary evidence in Tibetan, how come Phabongka and Trijang were able to hoodwink the entire gelugpa establishment for half a century, or more? How come it took extensive research into old decaying hypotheses and histories for the 14th Dalai Lama and friends (I presume he had some scholarly assistance, such as the late Lobsang Gyatso, though I don’t really know) to uncover these untruths?”
Prior to 1959 books were expensive, rare, and mostly in the hands of monastic and private libraries. After 1959 the whole of Tibetan culture was disrupted.
Another factor was the way in which the four lineages were siloed from one another. A fact of Tibetan history is that there was very little true intellectual exchange between Tibetan Buddhist schools subsequent to the rise of the Gelug hegemony in the seventeenth century in Central Tibet.
Another factor is Pabhongkha’s political power. After the thirteenth Dalai Lama passed away, Pabhongkha swiftly consolidated his power, and he was the most popular Gelug master in Central Tibet. He spread the practice of Dholgyal among the central Tibetan eiites. So when HH Dalai Lama was a 15 year old boy, he went along with whatever he was told to do. At this point, the new Shugden phenomena was no more than 30 years old, and its wide proliferation only the same age as himself.
Another factor, and perhaps the most important one one in all of this, is that ordinary Tibetans, for the most part have no access to large libraries, even if they can read, nor do they have the critical skills necessary to uncover such information systematically or even necessarily understand its import.
Since Shugden is not mentioned in any tantra, nor is he mentioned in the annals of Padmasambhava, nor is he mentioned anywhere in any book prior to the rise of the Gyalpo at Dhol Chu Mig in Tibet, the records we have of him are largely confined to biographies of high lamas and their visionary interactions with him, with his oracles, and in some cases, in Sakya, his interaction with the Khon family, to whom he was originally bound as a mundane protector into the retinue of the Four-faced Mahakala.
Of course, the Sakyapas have never been confused about Shugden’s nature, and in the form he assumed at Sakya, the so called rta nag Shugden i.e. Shugden on a black horse, he was always considered the junior of the rgyal po gsum, the three gyalpos, i.e. Gyalpos Pehar, Setrab and Shugden.
Since this concept that this deity was newly minted as a wisdom protector, Tibet was in social chaos at the time of his rise, with the Chinese revolution happening on its eastern border, World Wars One a recent memory and WWII swirling arounds its border, and since Shugden was renovated to be a kind of Gelugpa Dorje Legpa (who function in Nyingma is mainly to support practitioners with favorable conditions), no one in the Gelug school really bothered to discover the truth of the nature of Shugden, since they were caught up in the cult of personality that had sprung up around Pabhongkha.
N
Namdrol // July 19, 2008 at 5:54 am |
Harry:
“but may i ask: if it’s not personal, then why why do you need to insult us?”
I am not insulting you.
However, I think the people NKT dresses up in religious outfits are behaving like thugs and hooligans, deliberately trying to a provoke confrontations to obtain media space, fabricating press releases as “news” i.e. for example this PRweb screed by NKT/WSS:
http://www.prweb.com/releases/2008/7/prweb1121004.htm
Frankly, you folks are being manipulated, lied to, and defrauded by NKT.
N
Namdrol // July 19, 2008 at 4:27 pm |
A friend wrote from Madison:
“Saw the WSS at the teachings today.
6:41 PM
They are good at setting up camera angles the way they arrange themselves for protests
6:42 PM
I don’t think there were more than 40 of them, but they spread themselves out horizontally and staggered slightly back so they looked like many many more”
Harlan // July 19, 2008 at 8:29 pm |
Thank you Namdrol
That was quite informative.
If I was to go to an NKT centre knowing about the pervasive influence of Shugden, what could I do to protect myself? Principally, I’m talking about pujas or sadhana recitations that don’t invoke shugden. The reason I ask is that it would benefit me to continue to attend one particular HYT sadhana until I have mastered it. It’s only practiced infrequently there. And I also have to maintain my samayas.
I say this now with the intention of continuing my own practice at home until I have another alternative. In fact, I have really concluded my studies with the NKT today.
I’d really appreciate it if you have any advice on this.
Harlan
PS. I share your distaste for these demonstrations.
Namdrol // July 20, 2008 at 4:04 am |
Hi Harlan:
I appreciate your concern for maintaining your samayas– even to a teacher of questionable qualifications– that speaks a lot for you.
I would imagine that you are talking about Vajrabhairava or Cintamani Tara. In either case, it would best if you found another Gelug Sangha and underwent the necessary empowerments, etc. You need to find another Guru. There are many qualified Gurus in Gelug. You can always contact me at E-Sangha if you like.
Ironically, the best way you can protect yourself at NKT centers from Dholgyal is to chant the Migtsema.
kangroos make good eatin // July 21, 2008 at 10:32 pm |
Ironing is reality ~ and pizza is not italian
this should prove something about the Liverpool Lineage = all we are saying is give pizza chance
mr mellow NOT // July 21, 2008 at 10:37 pm |
oar moar ironical stil is that ya can lead a horse to water but that dont mean he kin swim ~ and itz mighty handy havin oppozible thumbs tho really = eyed advize makin good use ovem if eye was u
harry // July 22, 2008 at 2:12 am |
namdrol,
i’m afraid i remain entirely suspicious of your motives. the language you used on me was full of sting, which makes me dubious of your “compassion” towards us, and more so of your sources of information.
i’m not into the “i’m right, your wrong” game. i think anyone with a little wisdom won’t play it. of course the are exceptions, but you don’t give me much reason to beleive you anyway.
i had a similar encounter this year with avyorth rollinson, i’m sure you know him as he is also deeply “anti”, and he behaved in a exactly the same way: first insulting (taunting may i say?) and then pretending he hadn’t been offensive in the least. a puzzling game.
i know what your stance on nkt is, so you don’t need remind me again. i already asked you before: please don’t write to me with more of it because i’m not interested (i’m obviously deeply brainwashed and it won’t have any effect : ) the reason i wrote back was to ask you about your attitude. as i presume you don’t want to talk about this i suggest we finalize our conversation.
would it be within reason to finnish on a friendly note? i mean, can we as fellow buddhists wish each other the best along the path? well i wish you all the best anyway, mate.
cheers,
harry
harry // July 22, 2008 at 2:57 am |
i just wanna make a comment on post 113 from shaza:
“the NKT have marked him as public enemy”
this is nonsense. “him” has been marked by an independent person as a person who spends a lot of time posting dubious info on the nkt, and not by the organization nkt as an enemy! i have been in the nkt for a while and it simply does not operate in this way. even the dalai lama is not considered to be an enemy. nkt’ers are surprisingly sincere and honest in my experience, a real accomplishment if they’re under the influence of a powerful evil spirit
shaza // July 22, 2008 at 3:42 am |
Hi Harry
Ask Harlan why. I did not make that comment.
I was simply quoting him.
Best
Shaza
namdrol // July 22, 2008 at 5:02 am |
Harry:
“…more so of your sources of information”
You really believe that Dulzin Dragpa Gyaltsen was the incarnation of Buton? Even though their lives overlapped by 14 years?
That is a little incredible.
As for my sources of information, they are much better than yours– especially since I read Tibetan and you don’t.
You need to wake up, Harry, and stop believing that malevolent spirits are Buddhas.
N
namdrol // July 22, 2008 at 5:11 am |
Harry sez:
“nkt’ers are surprisingly sincere and honest in my experience, a real accomplishment if they’re under the influence of a powerful evil spirit”
I am sure that many people within NKT are sincere in their wish to practice an authentic Dharma. I am equally sure that the rank and file in NKT are being duped and taken for a ride. I am certain too that people like Kalsang Pema and so on are complete and total liars. They post fraudulent things to the web daily.
I am equally certain that you know very little about the history of the Gelug lineage, because if you did, you would run away from NKT screaming.
harry // July 22, 2008 at 7:00 am |
ok namdrol, have it your way.
goodbye and take care,
harry
harry // July 22, 2008 at 7:07 am |
hi shaza,
i’m sorry, i was browsing at some of the earlier posts, and i did not see correctly that indeed you were quoting harlan.
nice one.
ciao,
harry
namdrol // July 22, 2008 at 6:08 pm |
Harry said:
““the NKT have marked him as public enemy”
this is nonsense. “him” has been marked by an independent person”
Well, Harry, the fact is that newkadampatruth.org is owned lock, stock and barrel by the NKT:
omain ID:D153088919-LROR
Domain Name:NEWKADAMPATRUTH.ORG
Created On:25-Jun-2008 22:18:50 UTC
Last Updated On:25-Jun-2008 22:45:54 UTC
Expiration Date:25-Jun-2009 22:18:50 UTC
Sponsoring Registrar:eNom, Inc. (R39-LROR)
Status:CLIENT TRANSFER PROHIBITED
Status:TRANSFER PROHIBITED
Registrant ID:6a70526357c
Registrant Name:NKT Secretary
Registrant Organization:New Kadampa Tradition
Registrant Street1:Conishead Priory
Registrant Street2:
Registrant Street3:
Registrant City:Ulverston
Registrant State/Province:LANCS
Registrant Postal Code:LA12 9QQ
Registrant Country:GB
Registrant Phone:+44.1229588533
Registrant Phone Ext.:
Registrant FAX:
Registrant FAX Ext.:
Registrant Email:domainmanagement@kadampa.net
Name Server:NS1.KADAMPAHOSTING.NET
Name Server:NS2.KADAMPAHOSTING.NET
So if you think NKTorganization hasn’t singled me and the five other persons on the web, you are mistaken.
Incidentally, Namkhai Norbu is one of my teachers.
Harlan // July 22, 2008 at 8:34 pm |
harry
I did say that the NKT had made him “public enemy”. Whether I was right to say that or not is open to question. They’ve named him as a fierce critic of the NKT, which he is. So I don’t think anyone is right or wrong on that. It’s merely a statement of fact. I guess I shouldn’t have used the words ‘public enemy’.
harry // July 22, 2008 at 9:04 pm |
harlan,
thanks, that is more accurate. i was only trying to defend the nkt from unnecesary accusations. we already have enough bad press, and although i’m not omniscient and cannot verify how much is true and how much is not, i can certainly make an attempt at trying to point out some of the exaggerated anti-nkt stuff that gets posted around the web.
all the best,
harry
harry // July 22, 2008 at 9:33 pm |
harlan,
soz i forgot to say i really appreciate your more neutral approach to the whole affair, it’s a breath of fresh air. i do get a bit annoyed when nkt’ers and anti-nkt people just endlessly bicker without reaching any mutual understanding. i’ve fallen into this trap a few times (as i have with namdrol) and i guess it’s a lesson for me to learn not retaliate, to keep a peaceful mind and try to understand the other ones position.
keep up the desire for truth, mate
harry
harry // July 22, 2008 at 9:50 pm |
namdrol,
ok so you say this website is nkt. i did not realise this so thanks for correcting my mistake. however, my point was really about the “enemy” bit. harlan has resolved the issue in post 166. you know what i mean anyway so no need to go into detail.
Harlan // July 23, 2008 at 2:34 am |
No worries, Harry. I feel I have one foot in and one foot out of the NKT right now, which is why I may seem neutral. But I’m not “anti” the NKT. I am anti some of the nonsense going on right now though.
mr mellow NOT // July 23, 2008 at 10:25 am |
“I am afraid that you don’t really have the equipment necessary to understand this issue in its fine detail on your own”
ahhh ~ they final refuge of the arrogant!
does anti-non-sense = pro-cents? eye sure hope so cuz eye m broke.
Cheyenne // July 23, 2008 at 11:42 am |
With Reference to BUTON & DULZIN DRAGPA GYALTSEN having lifespan overlap & how Buddha’s can manifest many forms and don’t have to be linear but can be simoultaneaous.
————–
Extract from Music Delighting the Ocean Of Protectors
Kyabje Trijang Dorje Chang (Tutor to the Dalai Lama)
VAJRADHARA DORJE SHUGDEN’S PRINCIPAL
EMANATION LINEAGE DURING OUR TIME
BUDDHA MANJUSRI
MHASIDDHA VIRUPA
SAKYA PANDITA
BUTON RINCHEN DRUB
DULZIN DRAGPA GYALTSEN
PANCHEN SONAM DRAGPA
SONAM YESHE WANGPO
SONAM GELEG PELSANG
TULKU DRAGPA GYALTSEN
Furthermore, during the time of the Teachings of this southern continent’s fourth world leader, the Lion of the Shakyas’, he emanated as Venerable Manjusri, mahasiddha Birwapa (Virupa), Sakya Pandita Kunga Gyaltsen, Buton Rinchen Drub, Dulzin Dragpa Gyaltsen, Panchen Sonam Dragpa, and Panchen Sonam Dragpa’s successive incarnations such as Sonam Yeshe Wangpo, Sonam Geleg Pelsang, and Tulku Dragpa Gyaltsen. His emanations are infinite, all over the land of the aryas, India, and the ‘Land of Coolness’, Tibet, including incarnation lineages of masters and siddhas, some whose lineages are traced in unbroken succession, and others who lived concurrently with each other. Praise to all those great ornaments of the Teachings engaged in whatever acts of expounding and enacting the Dharma!
TULKU DRAGPA GYALTSEN INCARNATION LINEAGE
Generally speaking, there are various ways of listing the incarnation lineages. When the great fifth Dalai Lama was twenty‐three, Tashi Gyatso, the chant leader of the great prayer hall of Drepung Monastery, requested him to compose a prayer to Tulku Dragpa Gyaltsen mentioning his previous
lifetimes as the great Kashmiri Pandit, Buton Rinpoche. His chamberlain, Sonam Chopel, who when he later became involved in politics became known as Sonam Rabten, objected that the addition of Buton Rinpoche’s name in the author information included with one of Panchen Sonam Dragpa’s treatises was a mistake and he created disturbances accosting Panchen Losang Chogyen Rinpoche and Lingme Shabdrung Trichen Konchog Chopel, saying that a prayer including Buton Rinpoche, etc, was wrong. This stirring of conflict and division made it so that the fifth Dalai Lama did not compose any prayer other than the well known usual prayer to Panchen Sonam Dragpa and so forth. The chant leader who had requested it did not want it, rolled up the paper and made it into a throwing stick! The story is recounted in many of the biographies of the Fifth Dalai Lama.
– ACCORDING TO
PANCHEN LOSANG CHOGYEN, THE 4TH PANCHEN LAMA –
MAGHADHA ZANGMO
BODHIDHARMA
SHAKYA SHRI
CHOKU OZER
BUTON RINCHEN DRUB
KUNGA LODRO
PANCHEN SONAM DRAGPA
SONAM YESHE WANGPO
SONAM GELEG PELSANG
TULKU DRAGPA GYALTSEN
Panchen Losang Chogyen was not prevented from acknowledging the incarnation lineage. In the Tsang Tashi Lhunpo edition of his collected works’, in the ‘CHA PA’ volume, a section known as ‘E WAM’, lists the incarnation lineage of Tulku Dragpa Panchen Losang Chogyen was not prevented from acknowledging the incarnation lineage. In the Tsang Tashi Lhunpo edition of his collected works’, in the ‘CHA PA’ volume, a section known as ‘E WAM’, lists the incarnation lineage of Tulku Dragpa Gyaltsen as including Maghadha Zangmo, Bodhidharma, the Kashmiri Pandit Shakya Shri, omniscient Choku Ozer, Buton Rinchen Drup, Kunga Lodro, Panchen Sonam Dragpa, Sonam Yeshe Wangpo, Sonam Geleg Pelsang, and concluding with Dragpa Gyaltsen. Shal Ngo Sonam Rabten criticized it with angry words of prejudice against Tulku Dragpa Gyaltsen of the upper house of Drepung.
The author information that was the basis of his mistake was that included in Beautiful Ornament of the Mind, the account of the origins of the Kadampa tradition:
Protector who tells the story of Buddha’s Teachings,
The Kashmiri Buton who comes from Shalu,
Sole chronicler of the stories of central Tibet,
As the glorious Sonam Dragpa, composed this.
When checked closely, this qualified source appears to accept that Panchen Sonam Dragpa was an emanation of Buton.
– ACCORDING TO
LOSANG LUNGTOG TENZIN TRINLEY,
KYABJE LING DORJE CHANG’S PREVIOUS INCARNATION –
(added 8 names see below)
SHAKYA SHRI
CHOKU OZER
BUTON RINCHEN DRUB
PANCHEN SONAM DRAGPA
SONAM YESHE WANGPO
SONAM GELEG PELSANG
TULKU DRAGPA GYALTSEN
A prayer to the incarnation lineage of Panchen Sonam Dragpa was written by Yongtzin Ling Rinpoche’s previous incarnation, Losang Lungtog Tenzin Trinley. His listing was the same as Panchen Chogyen’s except for the absence of three names and the addition of eight more. The names from Panchen Chokyi Gyaltsen’s list that did not appear in Kyabje Ling Rinpoche’s were Maghadha Zangmo, Bodhidharma, and Kunga Lodro. The names of incarnations he added to the list were:
1) one who was a skilled captain who sat at the feet of Buddha Amitabha; 2) prince Tsondru Taye, Infinite Enthusiasm, son of king Sonam Metog, Merit Flower;
a scholar at Sera Monastery who realized emptiness.
3) one incarnation who received prophecy from the Dakinis that he would become Buddha Rabsel, the seventh Buddha of this fortunate eon;
4) Master Singhabadra;
5) a Brahmin boy who generated the universal altruism of bodhicitta by making an offering of a leaf from the Bodhi tree at Bodh Gaya;
6) the supreme Master Vasubandhu,
7) Akaramati, a disciple of Atisha; and
The list is practically the same as Longdol Lama’s list of Buton Rinpoche’s incarnations of Indian and Tibetan upholders of the Teachings all the way up to Buton. He says,
The one with furrowed brows who bestows supreme speech,
Who bears the name ‘Sun of Teachers’, is the sixth…
and,
The disciple of Lhayi Sonam, Divine Merit, is the eighth,
The one venerated by the mountain goddesses is the ninth,
The one offered alms by the king of the nagas is the tenth,
The glorious Dipamkara Shrijnana is the eleventh.
Such differences as the fact that five of the incarnations on Longdol Lama’s list are not included in the prayer to the incarnations of Panchen Sonam Dragpa derive from the fact that one list is more extensive and the other is more condensed. Apart from that, they are not seen as contradictory.
If anyone wonders that Dulzin Dragpa Gyaltsen is not listed in the author information and the prayer to the incarnation lineage, Dulzin Dragpa Gyaltsen was an emanation of the Master Gunaprabha as stated by Panchen Lobsang Chokyi Gyaltsen and confirmed in the realized visions of three other great scholar siddhas, while Panchen Sonam Dragpa said that he, himself, was an emanation of the Master Gunaprabha; so there is no need to remain in doubt.
Great beings, after attaining the state of unexcelled transcendent wisdom that is the culmination of the qualities of abandonment and realization, the Dharmakaya that is said to be the fulfilment of their own welfare, for the sake of others, display their body and speech in accordance with the aspirations of trainees. This variegated display merely appears to be distinct forms but in actuality is not separate from the great bliss expanse of Dharmakaya. Any Buddha is the base of all emanations so there is no need to be narrow‐minded thinking that a certain emanation is one particular Buddha’s emanation and could not be the emanation of another. Also, it is quite possible that some who have not studied the scriptural tradition or have studied but without much discerning wisdom, might think that as long as the successive incarnations of a lama live at different times it is fine, but it is impossible for two of their incarnations to be alive simultaneously. In fact, it is not a problem because, as is said in Sutralankara,
Just as immeasurable rays of the mandala
Of the sun all mix together,
Always engaged in the same work,
That of illuminating the world,
Likewise in the stainless sphere,
Innumerable Buddhas mix together,
Engaged in the same deeds,
Illuminating transcendent wisdom.
————
Cheyenne
Harlan // July 23, 2008 at 3:06 pm |
Oh.
Well I guess that settles it in.
namdrol // July 23, 2008 at 4:12 pm |
“With Reference to BUTON & DULZIN DRAGPA GYALTSEN having lifespan overlap & how Buddha’s can manifest many forms and don’t have to be linear but can be simultaneaous.”
Emanations are one thing, incarnations i.e. asserting that one person is the incarnation of a pervious person are quite a different thing.
If you pay attention the pious hagiographies penned by Tibetan disciples, there has never been one Lama in the entire history of Tibetan Buddhism that has not been the emanation of this Buddha or that Bodhisattva.
This is just more conflated hyperbole which is totally irrational if taken too literally.
And none of Trijiang Rinpoche’s arguments above form a proof that his claims are valid since there is no test for these claims. Such arguments amount to pious hearsay.
The only way to validate these arguments is that validate the author of such claims as a valid authority.
His Holiness the Dalai Lama has already negated the authority of this author on this question, again through reasoning and through citation.
So if you wish to persist in this inane fantasy that a samaya breaking spirit is a Buddha, that’s your choice. But asserting that this damsri spirit’s incarnations begin in two of the most important founding Gurus of the Sakya school is completely unacceptable.
As I already pointed out, we do not have tulkus of Shakyamuni Buddha, Padmasambhava, and so on.
Why not just claim that Shugden is the emanation of Tsongkhapa? If indeed Shugden is an emanation of Manjushri, why not simply assert that Shugden is Tsongkhapa? Or is Tsongkhapa somehow too special to have an incarnation?
In the end, one must accept that Tirijiang Rinpoche’s arguments are grounded in fantasies.
N
Cheyenne // July 24, 2008 at 8:17 am |
[Why not just claim that Shugden is the emanation of Tsongkhapa? If indeed Shugden is an emanation of Manjushri, why not simply assert that Shugden is Tsongkhapa?]
Of course this is exactly what we do say!
Tsongkhapa is an emanation of Manjushri.
Dorje Shugden is an emanation of Manjushri
Therefore Tsongkhapa & Dorje Shugden are both emanatons of Manjushri.
The lineage tree of dorje shugden is meant to show how all these Guru’s, in the lineage, are also emanations of Manjushri. What is the fixation with Tulkus? we do not engage in the recognition of Tulkus.
Cheyenne
namdrol // July 24, 2008 at 8:39 am |
“The lineage tree of dorje shugden is meant to show how all these Guru’s, in the lineage, are also emanations of Manjushri.”
What’s the purpose of mentioning them, if the intent is not to base Shugden is a serial iine of reincarnations? Why not include Jetsun Dragpa Gyaltsen, Longchenpa and other notable “emanations of Manjushri”?
But obviously obviously Trijiang considers these masters to be a lineage of _reincarnations_. So your argument is unsound, and Trijiang Rinpoche’s account is merely a pious fiction meant to inspire the faithful, and both your and his accounts are not reliable, since as I have pointed out, there are no incarnations of Shakyamuni, Padmasambhava, etc.
In order that people understand the fundamental flaw in all of your reasonings about these things, Sakya Pandita states:
“There is nothing stopping poets
from even praising ordinary geshes
as being Buddha-like;
but if explanations of the way things are
and the confirmation of characteristics
if explanations are not in accord with reality,
what wise person will rejoice?”
So, as I have said, here and elsewhere many times– you people mistake poetic hyperbole as facts, and thereby destroy the basis of your refuge by taking a wicked ghost that some poets in the past sought to appease through flattering his worldly vanity.
N
namdrol // July 24, 2008 at 11:53 am |
Should read:
“taking a wicked ghost as a refuge that some poets in the past sought to appease through flattering his worldly vanity.”
mr mellow NOT // July 25, 2008 at 11:14 am |
“arguments above form a proof that his claims are valid since there is no test for these claims.”
what you sea is what you git unless what you sea is what you think you sea
the test for real alley tea = if it smells like an alley and tastes like tea yer probably in the wrong nay boar hood.
udderwise if pigs could fly they wood still need wingz.
Robert // July 26, 2008 at 5:15 am |
I have been a student of the NKT for a few years. The books and teachings are clear and I enjoy the company of my fellow Kadampas. These recent protests make me feel very uneasy. I was always told that the NKT don’t get involved in politics but now they are staging political demonstrations and writing to the media.
I don’t really know much about whether Dorje Shugden is a Buddha or a daemon but it is clear from the discussion above that this issue is not nearly as clear cut as I was led to believe.I feel like I have been lied to and fed a false story just because I didn’t know enough to ask more questions.
Most NKTers are sincere and try to do what is right, but I think those in positions of power might be playing the same kind of games you get in politics anywhere. The disappearance of Gen-La Samden and other senior teachers seems to have been managed much as New Labour manages bad publicity. There is no honesty.
The way the people I know like my resident teacher is arranging these protests but they are supposed to be being organised by the WSS is also less than honest.
Maybe the Dalai Lama is doing bad things in the Tibetan exile community, but given the amount I have been lied to by my NKT teachers, I can’t even take there word on that. And anyway why are we getting involved in what Geshe-la has already said is a Tibetan political issue? I’m too scared to ask these questions openly at my center. I know one person that did and he was asked to leave.
The last straw came with the newkadampatruth website. I’ve seen similar sites like this run by Scientologists. Attacking critics and accusing them of having psychological problems is dispicable. Would the Kadampa Geshes of the past act like this? I really don’t think so.
I don’t know what to do. I should of gone to the festival today but I really can’t bring myself to be in the same room as some of these people.
LazyBuddhist // July 26, 2008 at 6:43 am |
Hi Robert -
Welcome. I can completely understand your confusion and anger. Had I still been involved in the NKT when all this protest nonsense had started, I think that would have definitely pushed me out for the very reasons you describe above.
For years I felt I was able to separate the teachings themselves from all the organizational nonsense. I came in and got my teachings and got out. However, through the years it felt like there was more and more pressure to give more of my time, money and energy to the center. And then, like many before and after, I burnt out and left. Leaving was not a horrible experience for me. I came out of the NKT with my faith and love for the dharma intact.
I think it is awful that people are being thrown out of centers for asking questions about the protests. That sort of atmosphere of fear and intimidation does not belong in a dharma center.
So, I guess you have some questions to ask yourself. Are you able to set some really strong boundaries and just go to class for the dharma and ignore all the other stuff? Do you still have enough respect for your teacher, knowing what you know now, to gain benefit from his/her teachings?
There are online resources for former NKTers. There are two yahoo groups: New Kadampa Survivors, and Kadampa Buddhism. The former group is for people who have definitely decided the NKT is not the place for them. While it is valuable to read other people’s stories, there are members of the group who seem to me to be quite harsh. They firmly believe that the NKT is a cult and aren’t afraid to mock the organization and pretty much everyone in it. The other group, Kadampa Buddhism is a gentler group, with both people who are still in, but questioning as well as those who have chosen to leave.
If you’ve paid for Festival, why not go for the teachings. I think it would even be worthwhile to voice your questions, concerns among your dharma buddies. I think you’ll find that you’re not alone in your concerns and questions. One of the things that really helped me when I left the organization was that I maintained contact with many of my dharma friends who understood my struggle, and who had been struggling themselves. It would have been a much tougher time if I had simply dropped out of sight and left my friends behind. Now, many of these friends accompany me to dharma teachings in different traditions, even though they are still involved themselves in the NKT.
Good luck, Robert.
mr mellow NOT // July 26, 2008 at 7:40 am |
“I think you’ll find that you’re not alone in your concerns and questions.”
I wish I could say that sum won really nose watts at the bottom of all this ~ but eye m purty sure they aint wit the one possible x eception of Dorje Shugden his self.
Nice Job LB cuz if any won thinks they iz alone in their questioning “WTF Mate?” then that is the only ‘real’ problem as far as eye kin tell = men E questions remain for many many hue man beans.
maybe ‘Lumpy Rug’ should be the next topic? As fur as I kin sey it all boils down to makin a connection to the Dharma ~ how ever you can git that done.
If fowks like Robert get the rug treatment then that kant be good ~ but on the udder hand since I M mitey sure no body is Mitey Sure about any of this then it seams to me the lumpy rug is about all there ever can be ~ peelin it back is gonna be a mess no matter how ya snortit.
certainly uncertain is not a bad place to be = I reck-o-mend not takin any ovit as godspil on eyether side especially if theyiz tellin ya they nose how it ‘really’ iz. (the fence kinda sux 2 tho)
doez enybody real eye x pect 2 S cape da first noble troot in any ov dis bizzyness?
no more marshmellows // July 26, 2008 at 7:42 am |
#182 = WoooHooo !!
harry // July 26, 2008 at 8:11 am |
Hi Robert,
I’m an NKT practioner and have a little experience on this matter. I have struggled personally with some things in the NKT, but gradually over the years i have learned that NKT is run by humans and therefore mistakes are often made. Dogmatic attitudes, narrowmindedness (is that a word? lol), you name it it can be found within the people of NKT. But i think that this happens in all spiritual traditions, buddhist and non-buddhist, perhaps because we are all attached to our own views. At the end of the day our mind percieves fault in whatever object it becomes familiar with. I’m not in particular trying to defend the NKT here, i think this is the same in any situation. And of course, just because the NKT appears ok to me it doesn’t mean it’s ok for everyone.
The demonstrations aren’t of a political nature, but i can understand why they can seem a bit shocking. I was initially shocked when they began, but after doing some research and talking to sangha i started thinking that maybe they were ok. Now i stand for them because i believe that the dalai lama has made a serious mistake regarding DS.
If you would like to talk my email is gandulsatva@yahoo.co.uk (if you contact me there i can give you my number or skype name). I try to be unbiased and to see the wider picture of the situation. I am sure most nkters would be happy to talk to you about it too. I think people respond in a defensive manner if we approach them in an aggressive way. If our approach is one of “i sincerely don’t understand this situation, can you explain to me what is happening?” i think most people will give you an honest warm reply. Of course some people are a bit silly and will get all uptight if you make questions. This is a very silly attitude, but i think it’s just a stage people go through. When i got into Dharma for a few years i was very dogmatic and narrow-minded, and did stupid things like trying to convert my family lol. But in time i learned to relax, and to stop grasping so much at “my” path and “my” tradition, etc… Now when i see close-minded attitudes in my sangha it also brings an uneasy feeling, but i try to see what i can learn from it and i try not to judge them for those moments of silliness but for their greater spiritual intentions, for example.
All the best and good luck,
Harry
harry // July 26, 2008 at 8:14 am |
Mr mellow NOT,
you ROCK, can i be your fan?
mr mellow NOT // July 26, 2008 at 10:58 am |
sure – so long as you dunt mind a little narrowminded doggedness
harry // July 26, 2008 at 1:45 pm |
ooh sounds a bit naughty-i think i quite like it
kangroos make good eatin // July 26, 2008 at 3:28 pm |
Well then = All who have yet to fear me shall sooon feel the rath of lash ~ or maybe that’s the rash on my ass . . . i kin never remember witch way thaz sposed 2 go
Captain Pugwash // July 27, 2008 at 12:53 am |
Hi Robert,
Sorry to say this but your story sounds oh so familiar.
What to do……
Well what would be the worst thing to do would be to go back to the NKT and get reprogrammed. Within no time you will be thinking …….
‘the faults i see – they are coming from my impure mind’
And a few more years will go by and you will still see the same faults. Why? Not because of your impure mind but because the NKT will not have addressed any of their own internal problems and the evil enemy will still be the Dalai Lama.
My advice – retreat to a healthy distance – examine the problems you have from there. Do whatever research you need to . Look into the history of Shugden from many different viewpoints. Check out other traditions. Reconnect with your own heart and what is true to you. Make up your own mind without influence…..
And then when you feel strong enough – if you feel like returning to the NKT – then so be it – it will be your decision.
But please do one thing – do not allow others to use ultimate truth (emptiness) to deny conventional truths. This is not dharma and leads to madness.
kangroos make good eatin // July 27, 2008 at 10:15 am |
juz look out for the muddle way know madder whoze pushinit butt avoid the 2 extremes = yer inherent views and the inherent views of udders ~ an agin wegotta sey = karma aint a bitch unless you got the scratchless itch…
. . . the blue meanies are coming
empty or knot theyez still gonna kickyerass
suffering aint real butt it still hertz
harry // July 27, 2008 at 11:39 am |
Without influence…?
How do you check other traditions and other points of view on Shugden and then make up your own mind without influence? Is the intention of most of the anti-nkt sites, for example, not to influence? I would think the intention of the wss is to influence. When we talk about showing good or bad example, this directly refers to influencing people. Buddha and George Bush, for example, are two individuals who have had a lot of influence on the world. So i don’t think the problem lies in the actual influence but what kind of influence it is. More importantly one needs to check things like the motivation and wisdom of whomever they are reading or talking to. People with a good intention and some good sense are more likely to give a realistic and truthful insight into the matter. Of course it can be tricky to know people’s intention, but i think if the person is observed observed carefully this can become clearer.
Harry
Ron // July 27, 2008 at 3:18 pm |
Yeah Robert
You and I are in the same boat. More or less. I feel the same way you do and these demos in particular have forced me to distance myself a bit from NKT events.
Though I started at NKT, I’ve always been linked with the FPMT too. So that’s given me some perspective where others might have found themselves completely immersed in NKT think.
I’m going to be clearing my head a bit, leaving FP for a time, and investigating other traditions.
I personally feel that I owe the NKT a lot and am determined not to develop a hardline anti-NKT stance. It is a valid tradition, I have no doubt about that. It’s also made dharma so accessible for me, and from my experience, it becomes far less accessible once you start attending more Tibetan-orientated centres. I think my learning process will slow down in some ways, and will correct itself in others.
Perhaps the NKT has the structure you need. But perhaps you’ll only know until you’ve examined life outside the NKT.
I am open to the possibility that I’ll return. However, there are other factors I’ll need to consider for that to happen. Right now, it looks to me that the NKT is marching towards some kind of moment of reckoning. I’m not sure it will survive intact.
I think the NKT will never be part of mainstream Tibetan Buddhism. It’s a New Religious Movement. The way it’s going now, I think it’s going to continue rapidly on it’s own quite separate trajectory.
Keep well. Good luck.
Ron
Ron // July 27, 2008 at 4:09 pm |
Robert
For the record, regarding the NKT and Scientology. In my experience, there’s no comparison between the two.
I’ve said this before many times.
My name is Ron. I was named after L Ron Hubbard. My father was a scientologist for my entire life. I was born in 1968 so this was way before it became a serious Hollywood trend.
Scientology is seriously twisted. The NKT is very gentle by comparison.
This is just my opinion. But I have been very involved with both organisatons, so I hope that indicates I have some insight into it.
Regarding the NKT’s Truth website, I wish they weren’t adopting these tactics. However, it’s clear there is an internet war on and the NKT has been getting slaughtered.
I don’t think this compares to the way the Church of Scientology has targeted its enemies. Not at all. Bear in mind that I think my mother may actually have been listed as an enemy of the church when I was young.
Regarding Davcuts in particular, I have been reading his posts for years and have been seriously disturbed by some extremely unbalanced and unhealthy thinking, especially on his frequent eSangha rants. (Please go onto the pinned thread of the NKT and New Teachers New Beginnings and read these yourself.) However, perhaps the NKT might have approached this matter in a more compassionate way. I believe they did try. I don’t know for sure.
I think the internet has changed the rules of engagement. Now anyone with access can yield an enormous influence on others and create enormous damage without necessarily being subject to any scrutiny or accontability. How do you manage that when it happens?
monkees ~ not just for people any more // July 28, 2008 at 8:45 pm |
look deep into the center of your heart ~ oops that’s the gallbladder – OK once again now ~ what was the question? o ya ~ is buddha a dorje or a shugden right?
could be too boodahs in one? could be a woman at the door with a watchtower and a slow sermon ~ could be a man in a pork-pie hat with an axe to grind at the wrong address ~ could be ~ could be ~ KOOD BEEEEEEEEEE ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?
monkees ~ not just for people any more // July 28, 2008 at 9:02 pm |
eye still agree with #52 but even more wit #53
Khedrup // July 29, 2008 at 10:24 am |
If you are followers of Lama Tsongkhapa you should follow Tsongkhapa’s advice on protectors. He stated that the three protectors of the Ganden/Gelug tradition are 6 Armed Mahakala (Chadrugpa), Kalarupa (Damchen Choegyal) and Vaishravana. These three protectors correspond to beings in each of the three scopes.
Tsongkhapa’s writings and tradition are complete. It is amusing to me that those who claim they love Tsongkhapa’s teachings feel the need to rely on a deity never mentioned in his vast works to “protect the pure lineage”.
It makes absolutely no sense at all. His Holiness the Dalai Lama is completely correct.
For the protection of the Gelug lineage we should rely on the 3 protectors.
For the protection of Tibet in general we should rely on the deities bound under oath to Guru Rinpochey.
For the protection of the Tibetan Government in particular we should rely on Paldhen Lhamo.
Shugden just doesn’t fit into the equation. It’s a practice that arose out of a dispute, and contains the energy and violence of that dispute. It has no place in the Buddhis pantheon.
monkees ~ not just for people any more // July 31, 2008 at 12:16 pm |
“Shugden just doesn’t fit into the equation. It’s a practice that arose out of a dispute, and contains the energy and violence of that dispute. It has no place in the Buddhis pantheon.”
oh con trair moan frair ~ you must consult the hidden lineage to nose the really real truth – but perhaps you mere mortals lack the necessary equipment to perceive this deeply hidden object? Be Four Warned ! ! ! ! things are not as they appear ~ check the link below and all will be revealed to those with ‘true wisdom’(tm). Clearly the lineage real eyes up on Dorje Shugden ~ without question. Therefor your assertions only reveal your ignorance ~ question knot inda face ofda troot.
http://thebookofnigel.blogspot.com/
Tenzin Peljor // July 31, 2008 at 4:51 pm |
@Khedrup # 195. Thank you for offering facts and clarity. I can only confirm and sign what you said. Best wishes. Tenzin
Ron // July 31, 2008 at 5:22 pm |
Khedrup/Tenzin
I am not an expert on this. But since Phabongka introduced both Shugden and Vajrayogini practice to Gelugs, does that mean my Vajrayogini practice is also invalid? Vy was not a Gelug practice in Tsongkhapa’s system, as far as I know.
And if it is valid, who should my protector be: Kinkara, or one of the three espeoused by Tsongkhapa.
Tenzin // August 1, 2008 at 6:45 am |
Dear Ron, no Vajrayogini practice is not invalid at all. It has the lineage which goes back to Naropa and it is coming from the Thirteen Golden Dharmas of the Sakya Tradition. It is ok to introduce different practices and teachings in one’s own tradition. There is nothing wrong with this. The criticism Pabongkha is faced with is, that he changed the importance of different Gelug practices. Moreover Shugden was no enlightened being when he was introduced by Pabongkha. An enlightened being is also not invoked by oracles. There are many unresolved issues in that context.
As Dreyfus has put it:
“Pabongkha suggests that he is the protector of the Gelug tradition, replacing the protectors appointed by Tsongkhapa himself. This impression is confirmed by one of the stories that Shugden’s partisans use to justify their claim. According to this story, the Dharma-king has left this world to retire in the pure land of Tushita having entrusted the protection of the Gelug tradition to Shugden. Thus, Shugden has become the main Gelug protector.”
“Though Pabongkha was not particularly important by rank, he exercised a considerable influence through his very popular public teachings and his charismatic personality. Elder monks often mention the enchanting quality of his voice and the transformative power of his teachings. Pabongkha was also well served by his disciples, particularly the very gifted and versatile Trijang Rinpoche (khri byang rin po che, 1901-1983), a charismatic figure in his own right who became the present Dalai Lama’s tutor and exercised considerable influence over the Lhasa higher classes and the monastic elites of the three main Gelug monasteries around Lhasa. Another influential disciple was Tob-den La-ma (rtogs ldan bla ma), a stridently Gelug lama very active in disseminating Pabongkha’s teachings in Khams. Because of his own charisma and the qualities and influence of his disciples, Pabongkha had an enormous influence on the Gelug tradition that cannot be ignored in explaining the present conflict. He created a new understanding of the Gelug tradition focused on three elements: Vajrayogini as the main meditational deity (yi dam,), Shugden as the protector, and Pabongkha as the guru.”
“Where Pabongkha was innovative was in making formerly secondary teachings widespread and central to the Gelug tradition and claiming that they represented the essence of Tsongkhapa’s teaching. This pattern, which is typical of a revival movement, also holds true for Pabongkha’s wide diffusion, particularly at the end of his life, of the practice of Dorje Shugden as the central protector of the Gelug tradition. Whereas previously Shugden seems to have been a relatively minor protector in the Gelug tradition, Pabongkha made him into one of the main protectors of the tradition. In this way, he founded a new and distinct way of conceiving the teachings of the Gelug tradition that is central to the “Shugden Affair.”
Regarding your protectors, Kinkara is fine for Vajrayogini and the Gelug protectors, as taught by Tsongkhapa, are: Mahakala, Vaishravana and Kalarupa.
Bloofs // August 1, 2008 at 9:44 am |
“Let’s say another reason I don’t practice Shugden is that I’ve taken refuge in the three jewels. Indeed, I took refuge at an FPMT centre where I promised explicitly not to take refuge in anything that might be a worldly spirit, even if people told me it was a buddha (a direct inference to Shugden, no doubt). So if in doubt I’m committed to taking the safe option.”
-Ron, I’m curious as to how you avoid Shugden practice if you attend NKT centres. Do you avoid attending Wishfulfilling Jewel (where he is propitiated)? If so, how do you explain to your fellow NKTers why you are not attending daily WFJ? This is not a criticism as I attend an NKT centre and tried to avoid Shugden practice but don’t see any easy way of doing it. Thanks.
Ron // August 1, 2008 at 4:52 pm |
Hi Bloof
Asked and answered. You asked this question earlier and I answered it.
It’s not easy not practicing Shugden with all the peer pressure to do so at NKT. But I’m glad you’ve raised this question again.
Recently, on the Kadampa Chat forum I asked if there were others like me out there who were regular NKTers but did not practice Shugden. I was very surprised to find I was actually the only one. At least, out of the 190 or so members on that site, no one else came up and identified themselves as “non-DS NKTers” despite my repeated requests. A huge debate ensued and it was clear that everyone was most surprised that it was possible not to practice Shugden in the NKT. They were even more shocked to discover that I’ve been doing this at FP level for two and a half years. It also became clear that I could not expect an awful amount of support or sympathy when it came to trying to protect my right not to practice Shugden in the NKT.
In other words, in NKT terms, I seem to be a real oddball. I explain my ability to do this by the fact that I am just that sort of person. I don’t care what people think really and I’ve always been one to do my own thing.
The only answer I can give you is that my sangha community (including my RT) knows I don’t do Shugden. This is accepted there. I think they’re just glad I do get so much out of the dharma teachings I receive there. I think they’re all delighted I’ve lasted this long, because the fact is I’ve been a bit of a challenge from day one. I’m somewhat of a non-conformist and not as compliant as the others. However, they’ve been glad to have me. Of course, I’ve no doubt they’d have been far happier if I relented and started practicing Shugden.
I don’t do WFJ, and I’m quite open about that. However, I do do Quick Path to Great Bliss, and am vurtually the only regular member in that puja, which the residents appreciate I think.
So it is possible to get your dharma at the NKT, and not to do Shugden. I’m glad there are people like you out there who are trying to find a “middle way” on this issue in the NKT, as I have tried.
I’d like to make it clear that nowhere in GKG’s books has it ever been said that practicing Shugden is mandatory, even if you choose to make GKG your guru. Indeed, in Guide to Dakini Land, GKG explicity says (I paraphrase)…You should choose a dharma protector. People often choose the dharma protector of their spiritual guide, but that’s not required. By the way, my dharma protector happens to be Dorje Shugden.
In other words, it’s up to you entirely.
A cautionary note, though. My approach has its limits. For instance, though I’m accepted at the NKT, it’s clear I’ll never be asked to teach in the NKT, and I’ll probably not progress up to TTP level. But in most other respects, I’m a fully fledged member of the community.
However, for the moment, following the demonstrations, I have had to reconsider my position. I have decided to leave FP and to make closer connections with other traditions.
That’s my story.
I have got a lot out of the NKT and I’m not sure I want to completely divorce myself from them. I have friends there. However, like you, I have decided that Shugden is not for me, so it’s natural that I start looking around at other traditions.
I’ve always had some link with FPMT and will probably start attending more classes there. I want to continue my Vajrayogini practice and may decide to pop into the NKT for the odd puga on that.
But we’ll see.
Good luck with your practice. Don’t let anyone compel you to something you’re not comfortable with doing.
Ron
Ron // August 1, 2008 at 4:55 pm |
thanks Tenzin
I do appreciate you taking the time to give me this information.
Regards
Ron
Ron // August 1, 2008 at 7:29 pm |
Hi Bloofs
To reiterate: I avoid Wishfulfilling Jewel Pujas. I do attend Lama Choepa (Spriritual Guide) pujas twice a month but keep quiet during the Heart jewel sections. I attend Quick Path to Great Bliss, as I think DS practice is negligible there (of course, that’s only applicable if you have HYT empowerments). DS is mentioned in Quick Path but as one of a range of dharmapalas. I am probably going to start relying on Kinkara for that, but as yet have not relied on any protector. I don’t do Melodious Drum or Kangso. Otherwise, nothing else is off limits for me in the NKT. During retreats (Vajrasattva or Lam Rim, say) they do sometimes include heart jewel in the last session, so I try to avoid that one, and go to the earlier sessions. It’s a bit tricky doing all this avoidant stuff, but it does mean I focus on those practices I think are really worthwhile – Lam Rim and Vajrayogini for me. And I have made quick progress in my time there. I have found GKG’s presentation of the dharma very clear and easy to absorb.
Ron
Ron // August 1, 2008 at 7:31 pm |
LB
I’ve changed from a crab to a transvestite. Is there any particular reason for this?
Ron
monkees ~ not just for people any more // August 2, 2008 at 1:15 pm |
karma baby ~ or maybe a randoom avatar generator ~ oar maybe the werk of a ratful day eatery ?
seams like we could find a raison but watt wood that x plain?
the homo genisis of dis whole corn versation seams to revolve around x plain ashuns fur experience udder than hour own ~ personal eye find it helpful to own my udder experiences cuz if eye don’t den who will and who is not to be trusted.
Bloofs // August 10, 2008 at 12:50 pm |
Ron – sorry if that’s the second time I asked you this question – I honestly can’t remember doing that.
I think you have a lot of courage to do what you are doing. I’m not sure I do – I have certainly tried keeping quiet during the Shugden bits of pujas and hoping that will keep me safe – but I’m sure anti-NKTers will tell me this is not enough and I am polluted and infected by Shugden nontheless. Certain Christians would say the whole thing is devil worship anyway.
I did once while meditating in a shrine room at a centre have an intense vision of Shugden stepping down from the shrine and leering at me with his three eyes and sharp fangs, but I’m pretty certain this is my imagination running wild.
As I have said in other posts, I’m not sure the concept of Dharma Protectors fits onto my believability radar at all, so a part of me is insulated from this. Tibetan Buddhism does kinda remind me of Catholicism in a lot of ways, call Dharma Protectors ‘angels’ and you see what I mean.
“Hells, Bells and Smells” as my old history teacher used to describe Catholicism and it seems to apply here too!
Bloofs // August 10, 2008 at 1:06 pm |
“There are plenty of injustices in the world, and as NKT-ers, we were never encouraged to engaged in compassionate political actions. Yet, here with the Shugden issue, leaders with the NKT are out there with bullhorns and raised fists”
-LB, this is exactly what has always slightly disturbed me about the NKT. They don’t seem to do much if any charity or philanthropic work, apart from collecting in order to build more temples. And I’m not saying they have to get involved in Tibetan charity, just, I dunno go out and feed the homeless in Cumbria or something (at least).
Heck, even Scientologists have been known to do charity work.
Ron // August 10, 2008 at 2:40 pm |
Hi Bloofs
You and me are pretty much on the same page. I’m a sceptic on that too. I guess the main reason I’ve never wanted to do Dorje Shugden is that it isolates me from other buddhists. It’s not that deep down I really believe it’s harmful. And yeah – I know what you mean about the charity thing. I do pro bono work for the Salvation Army and, though I don’t relate to their christian perspective at all, those guys seem to be the real thing. They are true bodhisattvas.
Bloofs // August 12, 2008 at 10:02 am |
“I guess the main reason I’ve never wanted to do Dorje Shugden is that it isolates me from other buddhists.”
Yeah, exactly. Being in the NKT kind of does that for you anyway! lol…
Cheyenne // August 18, 2008 at 11:39 am |
Speeches on the Ban of Gelugpa Protector Dorje Shugden by Tibetan Leaders, the Dalai Lama and the current minister of the Government of Tibet in Exile, Samdong.
Their speeches show evidence regarding the ban on Dorje Shugden practice.
This discloses their emphasis on segregation, as well as the division of the monasteries and the Tibetan community in exile.
This also presents how the Dalai Lama is disturbing the harmony of the Tibetans in exile.
The speeches show that the ban is created by the Dalai Lama, not by the monasteries.
This proves that the Dalai Lama and his government enforce the ban, and control the actions taken by the monasteries in India…
…which is also having a negative effect on communities in Tibet and around the world.
Dalai Lama: “Today in the presence of the staff members of our government, and our people, my topic is on the Protector. But this is not a meeting about our freedom-struggle policy.”
Dalai Lama: “Today we meet here for a very specific reason, I think only we are meeting regarding this subject, I think other people in the world are not meeting about this topic.”
Dalai Lama: “I mentioned before at the last Kalachakra festival when we gathered. We are all gathering here: Lamas, Geshes and Dharma friends. I tell you this issue is very important and you must enforce what I say.”
Dalai Lama: “Otherwise if you think: ‘something like this is the Dalai Lama’s responsibility not mind, I don’t care as long as I receive offerings.’ Then that way of thinking is wrong. Understood?”
Dalai Lama: “And in the same way you can explain this issue to the people in Tibet if you have any relatives left over there. Such as Dakyap, Markham, Chamdo and Denma-Khampa…”
Dalai Lama: “…to all these regions, you must inform them very well, this is your responsibility to explain to those in Tibet. Understood?”
Dalai Lama: “Otherwise here I am saying something and you show me a very respectful attitude, but in reality you don’t focus on explaining the ban to others, then it’s very disappointing for me. Understood?”
Dalai Lama: “Many of you understand the reason and stopped practicing. But a few of you seem to not have heard my advice, and pretend that you don’t know anything about it.”
Dalai Lama: “And maybe you feel it is not serious and that it will be okay afterwards. Also you may think that the Dalai Lama in exile cannot do much about this, some of you think this way.”
Dalai Lama: “I began this ban to continue the Fifth Dalai Lama’s legacy, I started this by myself and I have to continue, and carry it to the end. Understood?”
Dalai Lama: “Some of you are not serious, but this is wrong. You, staff members, pretend not to hear anything, and you let time go by. You think it is better that we don’t take action against people.”
Dalai Lama: “When we have met each other you showed a pleasant attitude, and said to me “I am clean and not practicing anymore,” but actually this is deceitful. This is likely to continue to happen.”
Dalai Lama: “In Sera Je monastery some student voluntarily look responsibly and are working on enforcing the ban. This is very good.”
Dalai Lama: “You should take this as an example, and support each other. This is very important.”
Dalai Lama: “Once I mentioned at Drepung, while I was teaching on the Lamrim’s Great Scope, about the ban to practice.”
Dalai Lama: “During that time there were many abbots from all monasteries attending the teachings. Kelsang Yeshi, you were there, do you remember?”
Dalai Lama: “The abbots from the monasteries of Sera, Drepung, Ganden, as well as the tantric colleges of Gyuto and Gyume were there. Totally there were about fifteen representatives there. So they came to see me, crying, and promised me strongly to follow my request.”
Dalai Lama: “But in reality they didn’t do anything, so now the end result is not that good.”
Samdong: “The situation of Dhogyal [Dorje Shugden] has become very particular in our Gelug sect, therefore the Gelugpas must pay attention to this.”
Samdong: “Even if His Holiness hadn’t been clear in his speech, he already mentioned this topic very clearly many times recently and in the past years – as a father gives advice to his son.”
Samdong: “On this topic, we have to take some clear action. Otherwise, if we don’t act because we think that this ban is going to create a lot of different problems in our society, and fearing segregation within our society—then I think this is wrong.”
Samdong: “But the important thing here is that if we do not implement this ban as advised but rather we fall into doubts about our capacity and judgements…”
Samdong: “…and if we fail to fulfill and support the wishes and advice of His Holiness, then I think this would be very sad for us. So I have no doubt that you are not going to forget this request, but keep it in mind.”
Samdong:”The abbots, disciplinary leaders, and administrators of the monasteries, are facing this problem. And they are patiently going through this ban enforcement.”
Samdong: “And I know each one of you who works hard for the ban, and I appreciate this very much. I am happy that you voluntarily support and take action. This is very good.”
Samdong: “Some of you are trying to be tactful about this enforcement, and you may think that any action will disturb the harmony of this society. Some of you may have a reason to stay calm and tactful, I can’t comment on this.”
Samdong: “But those who act clearly and seriously, we are always rejoicing on your actions. Whatever you need to have from our government in exile, we are ready to provide any kind of support. I wanted to explain these things.”
Cheyenne // August 18, 2008 at 11:58 am |
WHY NOT JUST KILL HIM AND LET HIM BE FORGOTTEN?
“They can bury me in earth, drown me in water, burn me in fire but they cannot destroy what is not object to destruction. Do not worry – soon the sun will shine.”
One of the reasons why Tibetan Buddhism is so famous and respected is because of the powerful antidotes to black magic and evil spirits that are part of its repertoire. Where all else fails, it prevails. When Yamantaka comes, there is no spirit that doesn’t run screaming. If it gets really bad and the Lamas see the spirit cannot be tamed, they will perform a puja during which they ritually kill the evil spirit, dissolving it into the realm of absolute reality to keep it from collecting further negative karma by continuing its harmful activity. There is absolutely no spirit that cannot be subdued by an attained master – if we believe there is we are saying is that demons are stronger than Buddhas! Confusion prevails over enlightenment, since when?…
So a very intriguing question to ask is:
If Dorje Shugden a) is a malevolent, unenlightened spirit, and b) the Tibetan government, HH the Dalai Lama etc really wish to stop his practice and have him erased from our collective memory, why don’t they just kill him?
It would kill two birds with one stone:
a) Who wants to pray to a dead deity? The practice would stop automatically and immediately.
b) Who remembers a dead deity that nobody practices? Soon, nobody…
What did those find out who indeed believed Dorje Shugden to be an angry spirit at first, and tried to destroy him with wrathful pujas? That he can’t be killed. And what does that tell us? That he is not a spirit at all, but a supramundane being. Thus, the great fifth Dalai Lama wrote the following verses in the spirit of recognition and reconciliation:
HUM
Though unmoving from the sphere of primordial spontaneity,
With wrathful turbulent power, swifter than lightning,
Endowed with heroic courage to judge good and bad,
I invite you with faith, please come to this place!
Robes of a monk, crown adorned with rhinocerous leather hat,
Right hand holds an ornate club, left holds a human heart,
Riding various mounts such as nagas and garudas,
Who subdues the mamo’s of the charnal grounds, praise to you!
Samaya substances, offerings and torma, outer, inner and secret,
Favorite visual offerings and various objects are arranged.
Although, previously, my wishes were a bit dense,
Do not stop your powerful apparitions, I reveal and confess!
Now respectfully praising with body, speech, and mind,
For us, the masters, disciples, benefactors and entourages,
Provide the good and avert the bad!
Bring increase like the waxing moon in spiritual and temporal realms!
Moreover, swiftly accomplishing all wishes,
According to our prayers, bestow the supreme effortlessly!
And like the jewel that bestows all wishes,
Always protect us with the Three Jewels!
Kyabje Trijang Dorje Chang remarks:
“Even the composition of this short praise and propitiation brought benefit. Thus, although undisputed great Tantric masters tried to subdue him by burning him in the fire through their rituals, his display of miraculous power only grew greater, and it is in regard to this that he is being praised in this verse.”
In recent times again, such an attempt was again made and Dorje Shugden was declared ‘dead’. The very next day, he took trance and said this:
“They can bury me in earth,
drown me in water,
burn me in fire
but they cannot destroy
what is not object to destruction.
Do not worry – soon the sun will shine.”
If you have witnessed the great King Protector communicate through an oracle you have noticed the sacred presence of bodhicitta energy that inspires humility and gratitude. May we too be soon embodiments of universal transcendent compassion.
Cheyenne // August 18, 2008 at 12:15 pm |
VAJRAYOGINI AND GYALCHEN DORJE SHUGDEN, BLESSED TRANSFORMATIVE YIDAM AND PROTECTOR OF THE NUCLEAR AGE
“The practice of analytic meditation should begin with the topic of how to serve a spiritual teacher.
If you contemplate skillfully for about seven days the benefits of serving a teacher and for about seven days also the faults of failing to serve a teacher, you will produce a mental transformation.
……
You must bring forth the realization which perceives that your Guru is truly a Buddha. And since this very topic is much more crucial than all the others, devote yourself to it with great effort.”
(HH PABONGKHA DECHEN NYINGPO)
During the earthly life of Guru Buddha Shakyamuni it was relatively easy to gain attainments; at times, thousands attained arhatship simultaneously while attending the Blessed One’s discourses. In our day, the distraction in our minds caused by unbridled greed and hatred is so overwhelming that just living an ethically sound life is a great feat. Indeed, the Buddha has said that to live as a nun or monk for a day in our era would equal an entire life of an ordained person who was his contemporary. By that example we can see just how intensely different the odds are between then and now. It’s as if we walked from a sleepy village square straight into Las Vegas , or from convent school to an underground rave party, popping pills with mad hatters. It is very hard not to go with the flow that is really a torrential wave of heavy karma temptation. If we can get through the day without breaking our mother’s heart it’s heroic, on the exoteric level.
Esoterically, the tantric methods of transmutation instead of avoidance or repression become more and more relevant as we progress rapidly towards the finale furioso of this Kali Yuga or Dark Age. And thus, reliance on the ‘Three Roots’ – Guru, Yidam and Protector becomes crucial, the principal one of the three being, of course, the Guru, while Yidam and Protector are the attainment and activity aspects of the Guru’s holy mind and emanated as his blessings.
Only the tiniest fraction of today’s practitioners live in monastic surroundings or are otherwise blessed with the leisure and determination to practice the enormously complex and time-consuming sadhanas of Yamantaka, Heruka and Guyasamaja, the classic practices of the Gelukpa school.
Heruka Pabongkha Rinpoche, with perfect clairvoyance, foresight and compassion, recommended to make Vajrayogini our main Yidam, whose practice is shorter, easier to do yet as profound and increasing in power as afflictive emotions and degeneration increase in the time period we find ourselves now. He, in direct communion with Vajrayogini, who was Manjushri Je Tsongkhapa’s secret heart Yidam, composed the condensed sadhana that we are blessed to practice today. To think about this is one way that ordinary beings like us can appreciate the unfathomable kindness and wisdom of His Holiness Pabongkhapa.
How does all this relate to Gyalchen Dorje Shugden, whom Kyabje Pabongkha recommended as our main Protector? In terms of Yidams –
“Although you outwardly exhibit the haughty manner of a terrifier to conquer enemies of Lozang the Victor’s teachings, you are, in nature, that very Manjushri Yamantaka; with the supreme, unsurpassed devotion.”
and
“Although your aggregates, elements, spheres and limbs appear as the five families of Shugden, principal and entourage, they are actually the thirty-two deities of Guyasamaja’s body mandala.”
So, together with Vajrayogini, Heruka’s consort, we have the three classical Yidams complete again.
In terms of Dharma Protectors – just like Vajrayogini is the crystallized essence of all holy Yidams, so is Dorje Shugden the Vajra Heart of all holy Guardians of the Dharma, perfectly arising in our collective awareness at this time of greatest need.
Just like Vajrayogini, even if one does her practice imperfectly but recites her mantra with faith and deep Guru devotion, bestows great attainments, the great King Protector likewise helps miraculously if we strive to transform our minds sincerely, based on surrendering the self-cherishing mind at the feet of our Lama.
Cheyenne // August 18, 2008 at 12:26 pm |
[“I guess the main reason I’ve never wanted to do Dorje Shugden is that it isolates me from other buddhists.”
Yeah, exactly. Being in the NKT kind of does that for you anyway! lol…]
Do you want to be non isolated from other ‘Buddhist’ or do you want to join ‘with’ all Buddhas, for the benefit of all (including other Buddhists)
Guru, Yidam, Protector, the three legged stool.
Take one leg away, the stoo; falls over.
Ron // August 18, 2008 at 3:31 pm |
So what do you say to those who tell me that Kinkara is the protector for Vajrayogini practice, not Dorje Shugden?
no more marshmellows // August 18, 2008 at 6:09 pm |
every bodeez got an opinion and they all . . . well you no
best thing I’ve read on n e ov dese bogs yet =
“There is absolutely no spirit that cannot be subdued by an attained master – if we believe there is [then what] we are saying is that demons are stronger than Buddhas! Confusion prevails over enlightenment, since when?…”
so then a protector by any udder name wood smell as sweeeet eh?
Namdrol // August 18, 2008 at 7:27 pm |
“If you have witnessed the great King Protector communicate through an oracle”
Wisdom protectors do not communicate through oracles; only worldly protectors do so.
Ron // August 18, 2008 at 8:08 pm |
There must be a glitch in the matrix because I’m experiencing deja vu.
shaza // August 18, 2008 at 9:26 pm |
“Guru, Yidam, Protector, the three legged stool.
Take one leg away, the stoo; falls over.”
It’s silly to think that Shugden was ever the leg in the Vajrayogini practice. Even GKG does not make it mandatory in the old days.
“For me, Dorje Shugden is the great Protector of the Guru’s words and I use the fifth torma as an offering to him. The following sepcial verse for offering the torma to Dorje Shugden can be added to the prayers immediately after the verse to the Kinkara Protectors” (p.196, Guide to Dakini Land)
What happens now?
Cheyenne // August 21, 2008 at 10:34 am |
Are you not aware that wishfullfilling jewel, kangso & lama chopa are HYT practices?
Cheyenne // August 21, 2008 at 10:38 am |
the three legs of the stool are practices of; 1 guru, 2 yidam, 3 protector -1 lama chopa, 2 vajrayogini / heruka, 3 kangso (wishfullfilling jewel).
Ron // August 21, 2008 at 3:17 pm |
Yeah?
Well, I guess I’ve been levitating then.
no more marshmellows // August 21, 2008 at 10:56 pm |
not too mention the often unmentionable one legged stool?
ya don’t wanna try it upside down
Cheyenne // August 22, 2008 at 4:58 am |
“Well, I guess I’ve been levitating then”.
who is it that is levitating?
who’s mind are you using to levitate?
Are you using the mind of the Guru?
who is navigating your journey, is it you?
or is it you protector, who’s function is to clear the path of karmic obstructions.
Cheyenne // August 22, 2008 at 5:31 am |
for us (if we are Gelugpas) the path consists of three principle aspects & the two tantric stages.
Renunciation, bodhichita, the correct view of emptiness and the two tantric stages (generation & completion stages).
we practice the first three in conjunction with two latter two stages, the union of sutra & tantra, at taught by Je Tsongkhapa.
Tantra will never work without realisations of the three principle aspects , plus the accumulation of a collection of merit & a collection of wisdom. the first three stges are the foundation of the latter two stages.
the mind of the Guru (guru yoga) is our guide (not our own deluded mind) the protecter is the navigator who will clear the path of obsacles and help us to gain realisations of three principle aspects. the yidam is the final vehicle (completion stage) by which we attain enlightenment having accumulated a vast amont of merit & wisdom.
Dorje Shugden is manifest wrathfull wisdom (our guru), Kinkara is manifest wrathfull widom (our yidam). both are manifestaions of omnicient wisdom to protect our practice (same person, two aspects).
Sutra & Tantra are integral on Je Tsongkhapas path(s).
Wrathfull wisdom (our guru), wrathfull widom (our yidam) are nessessary to the successfull navigation of these integral paths of sutra & tantra.
shaza // August 22, 2008 at 8:02 am |
last time i heard, there are only three protectors assigned to the three scopes by Je Tshongkhapa.
pl. read post# 195
you really need to show me where Dorje Shugden is ever mentioned in Tsongkhapa’s writings..
Best
Shaza
harry // August 22, 2008 at 8:44 am |
Hi Cheyenne,
I really don’t see what the problem is with Ron’s lack of wish to practice DS. You have your path, he has his. If he is happy with what he has why pester him into something he doesn’t want?
Hello Shaza,
DS is not mentioned in any of JT’s works. Nobody is saying that he is. However, according to KG Mahakala is the same nature as Manjushri, so in essence they are the same (according to KG).
Harry
Namdrol // August 22, 2008 at 10:21 am |
Hi Harry:
Six armed Mahakala (which comes originally from the Shangpa Kagyu lineage) is an emanation of Avalokiteshvara– this is very well known.
harry // August 22, 2008 at 11:26 am |
Namdrol,
Please forgive me for not knowing the very well known! Actually no, thanks for pointing that out, i read something briefly in the book Heart Jewel by KG and i think i was a bit precipitated in posting something i didn’t research properly. I think maybe it was another protector, maybe Kalarupa i’m not sure.
Hi Shaza,
Sorry looks like i may be wrong on that one. I’ll see if i can do a some homework and get back to you.
Peace,
Harry
Namdrol // August 22, 2008 at 11:57 am |
Kalarupa aka Dharmaraja is the special protector of Vajrabhairava, hence an emanation of Manjushri.
Ron // August 22, 2008 at 8:12 pm |
Okay Cheyenne
Thanks for that information.
My tantra practice is still in it’s infancy.
The information I have (from Guide to Dakini Land) as well as other practitioners (both in NKT and elsewhere) is that I am not required to choose the protector of my guru. So I haven’t. I have not yet selected a protector yet.
Fortunately, my tantric commitments allow me to maintain my commitments simply through the wish to one day practice perfectly. And I do have that intention. Of course, I am not yet practicing perfectly.
Cheyenne // August 23, 2008 at 4:27 am |
Ron, no problem, don’t worry, be happy, just try
Cheyenne // August 23, 2008 at 5:05 am |
from post 212
—-
Heruka Pabongkha Rinpoche, with perfect clairvoyance, foresight and compassion, recommended to make Vajrayogini our main Yidam, whose practice is shorter, easier to do yet as profound and increasing in power as afflictive emotions and degeneration increase in the time period we find ourselves now.
He, in direct communion with Vajrayogini, who was Manjushri Je Tsongkhapa’s secret heart Yidam, composed the condensed sadhana that we are blessed to practice today. To think about this is one way that ordinary beings like us can appreciate the unfathomable kindness and wisdom of His Holiness Pabongkhapa.
How does all this relate to Gyalchen Dorje Shugden, whom Kyabje Pabongkha recommended as our main Protector? In terms of Yidams –
“Although you outwardly exhibit the haughty manner of a terrifier to conquer enemies of Lozang the Victor’s teachings, you are, in nature, that very Manjushri Yamantaka; with the supreme, unsurpassed devotion.”
—-
The trend of emphasizing humility and keeping one’s samaya commitments pure continued with Duldzin Drakpa Gyaltsen (Duldzin literally means ‘holder of vows’). He was very close to Je Tsongkhapa and his first Gelugpa disciple, with Khedrupje and Gyaltsapje coming from the Sakya tradition.
Although both master and student were Manjushri-emanations, they worked in their relative aspects to show an example of humble practice. In this way they helped Lord Manjushri’s instructions, which Tsongkhapa received through direct communion, to reach many people. Duldzin Drakpa did everything to help in creating good conditions for these teachings to spread.
It was him who undertook the building of Gaden Monastery. He also built his own temple for Kunrik practice near Gaden and took care of the Monastery when Lama Tsongkhapa was away.
After Je Lama’s passing he was offered the Gaden throne but preferred to remain in the background to clear obstacles and prepare the way for the flow of Dharma.
While Je Tsongkhapa was giving a Dharma discourse, Nechung appeared to Duldzin Drakpa Gyaltsen in the form of a white dove, urging him to manifest as a protector of Je Tsongkhapa’s teachings who are so sublime and precious that a special protector is needed to guard and further them in this world.
Nechung repeated his request to Duldzin Drakpa Gyaltsen’s subsequent incarnations and during the time of Tulku Drakpa Gyaltsen approached again, asking him if he remembered his promise. Tulku Drakpa Gyaltsen replied that since there was no anger in his mindstream, how could he manifest the wrathful energy of a Dharma protector? Thus the event of strangulation was displayed with bodhicitta motivation, enabling the enlightened being Tulku Drakpa Gyaltsen to manifest wrath at the moment of death and to emerge in this way as the transcendent supramundane Dharmapala Gyalchen Dorje Shugden.
Since killing a bodhisattva is nonetheless a very grave event, the elements reacted violently, and various strange occurrences took place for some time.
Dorje Shugden has played a major role in bringing the Buddhadharma from Tibet into the world, as we will see, and will continue so on a global scale.
—–
Kalarupa & Dorje Shugden are both wrathfull aspects of wisdom buddha Manjushri.
in degenerate times (as in now) we who practice the teachings of je tsongkhapa have a stonger karmic connection with dorje shugden (rather than kalarupa) and also with vajroyogina as our yidam.
vajroyogina & heruka are inseaparably one and are aspects of the union of the mind of bliss & emtiness. in this context bliss is commpassion & emtiness is wisdom, therefore heruka is buddha of commpassion, vajoyagini is buddha of wisdom (in tantra male aspect is compassion femail aspect is wisdom) they are union of wisdom & compasion.
so in this context vajrayogini & dorje shugden are aspects of omnicient wisdom appearing as yidam & protector for practicioners in degenerate times who have little merit & time.
guru is je tsongkhapa who is vajradhara (difinitive Guru) who is also heruka.
Vajradhara is primordial buddha the resultant purified omnicient wisdom arising from our buddha nature.
Namdrol // August 23, 2008 at 6:36 am |
“Thus the event of strangulation was displayed with bodhicitta motivation, enabling the enlightened being Tulku Drakpa Gyaltsen to manifest wrath at the moment of death and to emerge in this way as the transcendent supramundane Dharmapala Gyalchen Dorje Shugden.”
You can pain shit gold, but it still smells just as bad.
harry // August 23, 2008 at 9:42 am |
“You can pain shit gold, but it still smells just as bad.”
Does this apply to the Buddha’s previous incarnation where as a Boddhisatva he killed a guy who planned to kill 500 people? And to the countless other accounts in which wrath was used by attained masters?
shaza // August 23, 2008 at 9:28 pm |
According to Trijang, Tulku Dragpa Gyaltsen remembered his promise and orchestrated his own death with the help of Nechung so that he can arise as Shugden :
“Accordingly, going back to the last vision for a moment, not only had he received the command and commitment from his direct and lineage gurus such as Je Tsongkhapa who were of the sae mental continuum as the Arhat Upagupta, it is also pleased him to hear it in the words of exhortation from that Protector of the Four Places, the Dharma King Nechung, and he had a vision of arising as a lord of the wrathful ones with an entourage of wrathful spirits and wrathful offerings. Yet his wish to arise as a protector of Je Tsongkhapa’s teachings and the opportunity of the circumstances that would converge between the Great Fifth Dalai Lama and Tulku Dragpa Gyaltsen, who were two great beings like the sun and the moon, seemed remote at the time. How quickly the commitments joined as one, he was enthroned, and so forth, as a great powerful wrathful protector of the Geden teachings, can generate conviction, as well.
When strangled with the scarf by those evil‐minded ones,
Through the force of bodhicitta you arose as an overlord of wrathful ones,
And, day and night, with various terrifying manifestations,
Frightened even the courageous, praise to you!
Then, when he remembered his previous promise, he went to Pehar’s temple and said to the Dharma King Nechung, ‘Now I remember my previous promise, so what should I do?’ The Dharmapala said, ‘I can perform the activities to take care of that!’ Soon after that, emanations of the Dharma King Nechung, hosts of travelers from all over, including many from Kham, eastern Tibet, came to Lhasa and sought audience and made offerings to Tulku Dragpa Gyaltsen at the upper residence, in numbers that seemed to eclipse even those seeking audience with the Great Fifth Dalai Lama. The Dalai Lama’s Ganden Palace was referred to as the lower residence and Dragpa Gyaltsen’s Palace was referred to as the uppe residence and people were talking as if the upper and lower residences of Drepung were practically equal in stature. Moreover, in the center of the rows of monks attending the great offering and prayer festival of Lhasa they made Dragpa Gyaltsen’s thron higher than the Dalai Lama’s. By this and other various means, Desi Sonam Chöpel and other attendants at the Ganden Palace were made unbearably jealous and sought a chance to kill Dragpa Gyltsen. The auspicious time for Dragpa Gyaltsen’s promise to be fulfilled had also arrived so, when he was thirty‐eight, on the twenty‐fifth day of the fourth month of the fire monkey year, he pretended a sudden illness which he said was due to ‘nyen’ spirits and made his preparations. On the thirteenth of the fifth month, Desi Sonam Chopel’s brother named Depa Norbu or Nangso Norbu, in league with the evil Desi, under pretext of illness, came secretly to where Tulku Dragpa Gyaltsen was staying in the large bedroom of the house where he was born, called ‘ga kha sa pa’xxviii, with the intention of killing him. No matter how hard he tried to stab him with his weapon, however, it would not penetrate the skin, so he stuffed a silk scarf down his throat until he died.”
(p.93ff, Music Delighting the Ocean of Protectors)
Cheyenne // August 24, 2008 at 5:49 am |
“You can paint shit gold, but it still smells just as bad”
to an accomplished one, shit and gold are the nature of, & merely arisings from, the supreme mind of bliss and emptiness, the nature of heruka.
Namdrol // August 24, 2008 at 8:31 am |
Harry:
“Does this apply to the Buddha’s previous incarnation where as a Boddhisatva he killed a guy who planned to kill 500 people?”
This karma of the bodhisattva ripened when the Buddha stepped on an acacia thorn.
Cheyenne:
Are you claiming that have that realization? And if not, what is the point of making this statement?
Namdrol // August 24, 2008 at 8:37 am |
“Tulku Dragpa Gyaltsen remembered his promise and orchestrated his own death with the help of Nechung so that he can arise as Shugden.”
Doesn’t this strike anyone as more than a little bizarre? Suicides, murders, when are you Dolgyal people going to wise up?
N
harry // August 24, 2008 at 8:52 am |
Yeah Namdrol,
It’s actually quite embarrassing, every other day someone in the NKT gets possessed by the evil spirit and takes their own life. And of course wherever a group of DS practitioners reside the murder count goes way up. LOL!!!
shaza // August 24, 2008 at 8:57 am |
And the recipe of his death…
“Strangled, not stabbed”
just as picky as Bond.
Bloofs // August 25, 2008 at 12:44 pm |
“Doesn’t this strike anyone as more than a little bizarre? Suicides, murders, when are you Dolgyal people going to wise up?”
-People are plenty irrational Namdrol, doesn’t mean Shugden exists.
Cheyenne // August 28, 2008 at 12:47 pm |
‘Are you claiming that have that realization? And if not, what is the point of making this statement?’
I am not claiming any realisations here, you can only know your own mind and unless you are a Buddha you cannot know who is who isn’t a Buddha.
the point of the statement is – shit only smells to an impure mind.
you made the statement ‘ You can paint shit gold, but it still smells just as bad’ with regard to the appearence of strangulation of a bodhisattva. this appearence is ordinary only to an ordinary mind.
with regard to the statement to ‘an accomplished one, shit and gold are the nature of, & merely arisings from, the supreme mind of bliss and emptiness, the nature of heruka’. You don’t have to have a pure mind to realise this, but you do need faith in Buddha Vajradhara.
Namdrol // August 28, 2008 at 1:24 pm |
“you made the statement ‘ You can paint shit gold, but it still smells just as bad’ with regard to the appearence of strangulation of a bodhisattva. this appearence is ordinary only to an ordinary mind.”
The idea that Dragpa Gyaltsen arranged his own suicide with Nechung’s assistance in order to become a protector is nothing more and nothing less than a delusional fantasy and a complete and total fabrication.
Cheyenne // August 29, 2008 at 2:12 pm |
‘The idea that Dragpa Gyaltsen arranged his own suicide with Nechung’s assistance in order to become a protector is nothing more and nothing less than a delusional fantasy and a complete and total fabrication.’
Are YOU claiming that have that realization? And if not, what is the point of making this statement?’
Namdrol // September 1, 2008 at 7:49 pm |
One does not need to be realized in order to understand the difference between what is Dharma and what is simply patent nonsense.
The assertion of your school that Dragpa Gyaltsen arranged his own suicide with Nechung’s assistance in order to become a protector is such an obvious delusion, that only someone similarly deluded would accept its veracity.
Such assertions merely provide more evidence for the totally unsound nature of relying on Shugden, just one more in a series of totally outlandish and far-fetched claims that Shugden practitioners use to impress the gullible into accepting this mistaken practice as valid.
Harry // September 1, 2008 at 8:14 pm |
Wanting to impress the gullible is a human trait.
There are people with this trait on both sides of the issue it would seem.
Some will say that HH and co are trying to impress the gullible. Some will say it is the WSS and family.
I think certain individuals from each side are both working hard at this, but i try not to blame entire groups of people. I try to listen to the honest people on both sides and make up my own mind.
Namdrol // September 2, 2008 at 3:07 am |
” I try to listen to the honest people on both sides and make up my own mind.”
People on the Shugden side are honestly deluded by their teachers. Unfortunatey for the honest people on the Shugden side, they have been fed lies and distortions by their teachers. Thus, what they broadcast, with honest intentions, are those very same lies and distortions. This is compounded by a complete lack of knowledge of the history of this deity, an objective assessment of the textual tradition of this deity, and a lack of means to critically evaluate the information they are being given.
To repeat, there is no mention of Shugden in the tantras; no mention of Shugden in the sutra, no mention of Shugden by Tsongkhapa. Shugden is the ghost of a Lama that met a bad end. That is the nature of your anti-dharmapala, a ghost.
Harry // September 2, 2008 at 3:36 am |
Well it’s a good thing that i do try and listen to opposing views. I’ll be fine, Namdrol. I recite Migtsema prayers a lot in my centre too so in any case i’m protected against Shugden anyway, right?
Namdrol // September 2, 2008 at 9:40 am |
“…in any case i’m protected against Shugden anyway.”
No, since your refuge is broken through regarding this ghost to be a Buddha.
Harry // September 2, 2008 at 10:37 am |
Just an honest mistake right? How does this unintentional mistake damage so much my refuge in other Buddhas?
How come the DL broke his refuge then, for 40 years? Break seems a heavy term in Buddhism. If our refuge is so heinously damaged what about the DL?
Harry // September 2, 2008 at 10:43 am |
I can’t believe your always slagging off the WSS and NKT for disseminating propaganda. You’ve tried to sell me some right tabloid nonsense quite a few times on here.
Namdrol // September 2, 2008 at 11:41 am |
“How come the DL broke his refuge then, for 40 years?”
He didn’t.
HHDL started doing torma offerings to Dhogyal in 1954. He stopped in 1974.
He never received any empowerment for Dholgyal, ever.
Also His Holiness made some slight error in following the advice of Trijiang Rinpoche about Shugden. However, as Sakya Pandita points out:
“However much he may mistake the path, one who has eyes will never step over a precipice. In the same way, even though he may make mistakes, a learned person cannot stray beyond the bounds of the Buddha’s doctrines.
But if one who is sightless takes a wrong path,
he will plunge over the edge and fall.
So, too, if an ignorant person goes wrong, he passes
beyond Buddhism and plummets downward.”
That Harry, is the difference between His Holiness, the Dalai Lama, and you. After careful study, His Holiness learned that practicing Shugden was a mistake. You have not learned that practicing Shugden is a mistake. He is sighted, but you are blind.
N
Namdrol // September 2, 2008 at 11:50 am |
“You’ve tried to sell me some right tabloid nonsense quite a few times on here.”
No, Harry- I am not selling you anything. I am simply telling you that your devotion to Shugden is mistaken. Sapan again wisely states:
“It is possible for certain demons of this kind
to assume the form of humans or Saints and then to teach–
after mixing their false teachings with the essentials of the Doctrine–
in order to propagate a wrong doctrine.”
I on the other hand, Harry, merely point out that this practice is not known in Sutra, not known in Tantra, and and so on. I do not have some new fangled protector practice to try and defend and validate (despite all common sense). Shugden practice is a contaminate, a poison, mixed with the Dharma. Poison food is impossible to detoxify, the only thing that can be done with it is to throw it away, and but fresh food from the market.
N
Harry // September 2, 2008 at 12:18 pm |
I’m stepping back, Namdrol, because i can see we this is going. Nowhere.
Ron // September 2, 2008 at 3:01 pm |
We’re on a road to nowhere,
come on inside,
taking that ride to nowhere,
we’ll take ride,
feeling okay this morning
and you know,
we’re on the road to paradise
here we go
here we go.
There’s a city in my mind,
come along and take that ride
and it’s alright,
baby it’s alright.
And it’s very far away
but it’s growing day by day
and it’s alright,
baby it’s alright.
I could tell you what to do
but I’d make a fool of you
and it’s alright,
baby it’s alright.
Perhaps you’d like to come along,
maybe help me sing this song,
and it’s alright,
baby ti’s alright.
We’re on a road to nowhere,
come on inside,
taking that ride to nowhere,
we’ll take ride,
feeling okay this morning
and you know,
we’re on the road to paradise
here we go
here we go.
shaza // September 2, 2008 at 9:43 pm |
Hi Harry
It’s nothing incredible about the “40 years” lie from WSS/NKT.
But it is incredible that people really believe it.
http://www.westernshugdensociety.org/en/protesting/dalai-lama-stop-lying
“The Dalai Lama himself was trained in this tradition, and for 40 years relied upon Dorje Shugden, even composing a prayer of his own praising Dorje Shugden and requesting his help. Then, suddenly in 1975 he abandoned the practice because he had ‘discovered’ Dorje Shugden was a harmful spirit! ”
It just doesn’t add up. Dalai Lama was born in 1935. He would have to start worshipping from the crib in order to make it on time.
Simple arithmetics.
Best
Shaza
Ron // September 3, 2008 at 1:54 am |
The 14th Dalai Lama is the reincarnation of the 13th Dalai Lama, who banned Shugden practice. It sure took a while before he came to see Shugden in the same light (40 years in this lifetime). Clearly, it must have been the Dalai Lama’s karma to practice Shugden until 1975. He must surely have picked up this potential while one of the earlier DL’s (most likely while as the 13th, if there’s a karmic connection to Dorje Shugden; or possibly while as the fifth) and this must have ripened with his unwilling (ignorant) propitiation of Shugden – a being he later concluded was a ghost. (Let’s face it, that’s not great karma if Shugden actually is a ghost).
However, while that negative (or positive) karma has ripened, it has not yet been exhausted. Clearly. As it is still ripening in quite a significant way for the Dalai Lama – in London, Sydney, New York, France, Nuremberg, etc.
As it is for all of us.
Whether he’s a buddha, a ghost, or an irrelevant mythic entity, it seems highly likely that we all have some dodgy karma related to Shugden. And that includes the anti-Shugdenites here.
I could just be talking out of my arse, of course, but then don’t we all.
shaza // September 3, 2008 at 2:03 am |
if my arse can talk… that’s incredible
Butruos Butrous Ghali // September 3, 2008 at 3:38 pm |
one lama two lame three lama four
wit all dem lamas who kuld ax four more
and with all dem kidz runnin a round ~ house n e body gonna kept traka all dat?
eye sez = if the lama fitz where it ~ an dat ghoez dubble fur me arse
monkees ~ not just for people any more // September 4, 2008 at 11:40 pm |
eye fine alley git it = Namdrol IS Dorje Shugden ~ Lucy you got sum splainin to do
Butruos Butrous Ghali // September 4, 2008 at 11:43 pm |
“It is possible for certain demons of this kind
to assume the form of humans or Saints and then to teach–
after mixing their false teachings with the essentials of the Doctrine–
in order to propagate a wrong doctrine.”
sew then HH kud be DS is de-skies by dis logic eh?
Namdrol // September 5, 2008 at 4:21 am |
“sew then HH kud be DS is de-skies by dis logic eh?…”
No, I am pretty sure it is talking about people who fabricate things like Shugden, which have no basis in sutra or tantra.
N
Tenzin // September 5, 2008 at 2:40 pm |
Wow 262 comments…
I thought about religious fundamentalism in Buddhism, who is interested can read and comment:
http://westernshugdensociety.wordpress.com/2008/09/05/religious-fundamentalism-in-buddhism/
Ron // September 5, 2008 at 4:42 pm |
Hi Tenzin
My comment:
To me it seems that you’re not really concerned about religious fundamentalism in Buddhism. If you were, your article would have provided a broad-based overview encompassing the wide number of ‘fundamentalist’ buddhist groups out there. As it is, this article is a finely-tuned attack on the New Kadampa Tradition. It poses as a neutral, academic look at ‘fundamentalism’, but fails at that level. It’s pseudo-academic at best.
Largely, it was a thorough article. But it’s far from neutral, and I certainly hope it’s glaring inconsistencies and obvious conceits aren’t overlooked. There are too many for me to address, but I will tackle three here.
1)
Thurman’s comment that Shugdenites are the ‘Taliban’ of Buddhism. This is truly a nasty thing to say and more than anything else has put me off supporting the rigorous and mindless orthodoxy of those who support the Dalai Lama’s position. I think it comes from the mindset that the Dalai Lama is infallible and therefore any organisation that finds itself in opposition to his edicts is regressive, narrow-minded and ativistic. This particular ‘Taliban’ statement was made in the late 1990s and has never been substantiated, yet it is employed over and over again by people seeking to tarnish the New Kadampa Tradition for propaganda purposes. People who believe it are clearly inclined to ignore the irrationality of statements like this. Thurman may have a reputation as an academic, but he should be as subject to scrutiny as anyone else. How are Shugdenites like the Taliban? Please elucidate clearly. If you can’t – please refrain from employing this form of character assassination. And just by quoting this without questioning it, you are endorsing it.
2)
Your supporting statements come from the Dalai Lama, whom the NKT stands in opposition to precisely because of the points of view he espouses. Therefore the point of view they reflect is not credible and not neutral, does not further debate, and simply reinforces the existing status quo. Ergo, the entire article is practically useless to anyone looking for new insights into this dispute. You have simply reiterated existing dogmas, and since we’re all familiar with your efforts, for me personally reading what you have had to say here has been a profound waste of time.
3)
Your article creates the impression that Shugdenites are not interested in dialogue. Though I am not involved in these demonstrations, it has been made clear that they are actually an effort to force dialogue. In fact, it is Dalai Lama that is not engaging in dialogue on this issue. The Dalai Lama continues to avoid dialogue. Far from his assertion that people should ‘listen’, in fact he has not responded to the grievances made, despite ongoing requests that he do so. These are not recent requests – they stem all they back to the open letter by Kelsang Gyatso to the Dalai Lama in the late 1990s. This is available on the internet and it’s disappointing that you did not feel it necessary to make note of it in your article. This might have helped to convince me and others that you were interested in providing a balanced understanding of the Shugden debate.
4)
Time and again, the kalama sutta is brought up as a justification for the Dalai Lama’s position on enforcing his ban on Dorje Shugen. To me, this seems disingenious, and the fact that his supporters accept this rationale is telling, to say the least. The Kalama Sutta is a perfectly good piece of advice to people on methods they should follow in judging whether to accept a teacher or teaching, or not. It was certainly not given as a rationale to inflict one’s point of view on others. In that sense, like all buddhadharma, the kalama sutta is to be applied personally, after personal reflection, not to be used as a political tool to tell others how they should behave or practice. Indeed, it would seem to me that the kalama sutta, in spirit, is exactly opposed to the kind of use it’s been put to in determining policy on Dorje Shugden.
As I said, your article has many holes and I simply don’t have the time to plug every one of them. Hopefully, however, I have drawn attention to some of the flaws in the views you’ve put forward here.
Kind Regards
Ron
Ron // September 5, 2008 at 4:45 pm |
Did I say three.
Sorry I meant four.
shugdenpa // September 16, 2008 at 1:24 pm |
Hello Namdrol, Tenzin etc
Can you refute Ron Cook’s 6 reasons below for me please – which show how the Dalai Lama is not even a Buddhist?
If you can then I will stop practising Dorje Shugden….
The Dalai Lama abandoned even being a Dharma student when he repudiated his own root guru – “undoubtedly his most important guru” – in his own words.
Truth seekers read on…………
When a person assumes the role of a religious authority and leader it is incumbent upon him or her to show exemplary behavior. Such a person should understand that they will be seen by many to be a role model, and should know full well that their actions will be emulated. In fact, such a person defines what it means to be a practitioner of that particular belief system. They should also understand that their actions will be scrutinized by others. Therefore, their moral discipline should be flawless or at the very least they should make a strong effort to avoid as much as possible, any negative actions. They should be particularly mindful not to engage in actions that could easily be misconstrued. They should also scrupulously adhere to the doctrine and tenets of their faith. Supposedly such a person would be elevated to such a position precisely because they have all the necessary qualifications. Supposedly they would possess the uncommon attributes, experience, and wisdom to guide and council those seeking to practice that spiritual tradition.
If one takes the time to investigate the actions of the Dalai Lama we find that he lacks all of the above qualities. He has shown again and again to be an extremely poor example of not only what it means to be a qualified spiritual leader, but what it means to be an ordained person. His example if emulated, will lead to the swift destruction of Buddhism in this world. If the leader does not practice the basic teachings of the faith, how can he be considered to be an adherent of that faith?
1) Abandoning Buddhist refuge
To be a Buddhist one must take refuge in the Three Jewels – Buddha, Dharma, and Sangha. Refuge is a practice that is based in developing deep faith, and understands the good qualities of the objects of refuge. A Buddhist believes the Three Jewels to be the supreme objects of refuge, and takes a vow to seek ultimate refuge exclusively in them.
The Dalai Lama chose to ban the spiritual practice of Dorje Shugden. Among the reasons cited for this ban was the advice of the Nechung Oracle. The oracle is a person who ‘channels’ a spirit. Nechung is recognized by everyone including the Dalai Lama to be a worldly being of the spirit realm. The Dalai Lama consistently relies upon oracles and divination to make important religious and political decisions.
In his autobiography, Freedom in Exile, the Dalai Lama writes:
“For hundreds of years now, it has been traditional for the Dalai Lama, and the Government, to consult Nechung during the New Year festivals. In addition, he might well be called upon at other times if either have specific queries. I myself have dealings with him several times a year. This may sound far-fetched to twentieth-century western readers. Even some Tibetans, mostly those who consider themselves ‘progressive’, have misgivings about my continued use of this ancient method of intelligence gathering.”
None of these practices of reliance were taught by Buddha and are in direct contradiction to the refuge vows. Never has the Dalai Lama said that his decision to ban the practice of Dorje Shugden came from the blessings and advice of enlightened beings. His reasons have all been derived from the opinions of ordinary beings. Although he claims two previous Dalai Lamas and other high Lamas as reliable sources for implementing the ban they cannot be considered reliable sources. This is because if they were realized beings they would understand that it is impossible for them or their disciples to be harmed by the practice of Dorje Shugden. Buddha taught that one of the benefits of refuge is protection from harm from others. This is also one of the principal benefits of relying on a qualified Spiritual Guide. If we assume that Dorje Shugden is harmful, how could a sincere Dharma practitioner experience suffering? The fears of these high Lamas and of the Dalai Lamas indicate either they do not have any faith in Buddhadharma, or that they do not put Dharma into practice correctly. Therefore, their opinion is unreliable. The whole practice of relying upon oracles and divination comes from the Bon religion. This is a religion that was widely practiced in Tibet prior to the introduction of Buddhism. How can the Dalai Lama be considered a Buddhist if he practices Bon rituals?
2) Abandoning reliance upon the Spiritual Guide
The root of the spiritual path according to Buddha’s teachings is complete faith and reliance upon one’s Spiritual Guide. This practice has been demonstrated by all the previous accomplished Masters throughout Buddhist history. They all taught such reliance to their disciples, who in turn did the same.
In the traditional prayer practice called Lama Chopa it says:
“The Guru is Buddha,
The Guru is Dharma,
The Guru is also Sangha,
The Guru is the source of all joys”
The meaning is that the Guru is a manifestation of Buddha Shakyamuni. The second line means that he is the embodiment of the realizations of the stages of the path to enlightenment. The third line means that through putting his instructions into practice causes sentient beings to attain supreme results. Therefore, the Guru is the source of all joys.
The fourteenth Dalai Lama has repudiated his Spiritual Guide and the lineage of his Spiritual Guide, stating unequivocally that they were “all wrong” for practicing Dorje Shugden. He has deleted the names of his Spiritual Guide (Trijang Rinpoche) and lineage Gurus from sadhanas, books, and teachings. This action of deleting the names of lineage gurus demonstrates without any doubt that he is not a Buddhist. It is a direct attack on Buddhadharma. Moreover, it has been his wish since 1960 to merge all four schools of Tibetan Buddhism into one. His real intention is to destroy all existing lineages and establish the Dalai Lama(s) as the sole holder(s) of Buddha’s teachings.
3) Abandoning sentient beings
If one were to ask a Buddhist to synthesize the meaning of their faith into a single word, they would most likely say that it is compassion. Specifically, it is universal compassion. Universal compassion is the substantial cause of enlightenment. Needless to say it is possessed by all enlightened beings. On the other hand, the Dalai Lama has clearly demonstrated that he completely lacks compassion. For more than 12 years he has refused to acknowledge the suffering that has been the result of his ban on Dorje Shugden. When confronted with the evidence of violence he dismisses it as “rumors.” Any compassionate leader would at the very least immediately renounce the violence and agree to investigate the matter for themselves.
The fact that he does neither indicates that has broken the basic Bodhisattva vow never to abandon sentient beings. His actions show that he does not consider the suffering he has created to be actual suffering.
No practioner of Dorje Shugden is allowed to attend any of his teachings or other spiritual ceremonies. They are also banned from being employed or holding any position within the Tibetan government in exile, or be considered to hold the status of a person of authentic Tibetan origin. They are not even considered to be a Buddhist practioner. As the leader of the Tibetan government in exile it is he that has personally instituted these additional bans.
Abandoning any sentient being is a cause for all of the good qualities one possesses to degenerate. Sadly, many of the followers of the Dalai Lama have emulated his actions.
The Dalai Lama’s absence of compassion, the very essence of Buddhadharma, shows he is not a practicing Buddhist.
4) Committing one of the five heinous actions
These are: killing one’s father; killing one’s mother; killing a Foe Destroyer; maliciously wounding a Buddha; or causing a schism within the Sangha. It is this last action that the Dalai Lama is guilty of. The Dalai Lama has caused one of greatest divisions in Buddhism since its inception. It has caused the whole of the Buddhist world to choose which side of the issue to follow. It has caused disharmony to erupt within families, communities, traditions, and between lay and ordained people. Even if the Dalai Lama were to suddenly renounced his ban, the wound that has been created between all these groups would persist for a long time.
On July 14th 1996, in Caux Switzerland the Dalai Lama said:
“Everyone who is affiliated with the Tibetan society of the Ganden Phodrang government (Tibetan government), should relinquish ties with Dhogyal. This is necessary since it poses danger to the religious and temporal situation of Tibet. As for foreigners, it makes no difference to us if they walk with their feet up and their head down. We have taught Dharma to them, not they to us…
Until now you have a very good job on this issue. Hereafter also, continue this policy in a clever way. We should do it in such a way to ensure that in future generations not even the name of Dhogyal is remembered.”
Note: Dhogyal is a derogatory term for Dorje Shugden.
The above statement reveals a calculated and malicious plan crafted by the Dalai Lama. Since the time of the 5th Dalai Lama the whole institution of Dalai Lamas has been the source of repeated division, oppression, and violence towards anyone who opposes them. As the leader of Tibetan Buddhists the Dalai Lama should possess both a superior understanding of Buddhadharma and practice of Buddhadharma. From the above statement we can understand that he has deliberately instigated the schism within Buddhism, and therefore is defying Buddha’s teachings. So how can he be considered a Buddhist?
Using perverse logic some have argued that it is those who oppose the Dalai Lama’s ban, that are guilty of committing the heinous action of causing a schism. This is analogous to an arsonist setting fire to a building, and a witness to this action begins yelling to warn others of the danger of the fire. Consequently, the witness is blamed for setting the fire!
5) Linking the survival of Buddhism with the survival of Tibet
The entity that is Tibet, either within China or as a sovereign state is a political construct. The function of politics is to improve samsara (cyclic existence) for oneself or for a group of people. More often than not this ‘improvement’ of samsara comes at the expense of others. China’s invasion of Tibet was illegal, immoral, and completely uncalled for, but this issue has nothing to do with the survival of Dharma. The function of Buddhadharma is to destroy samsara for oneself and others, to permanently escape the unending suffering of ordinary existence. Therefore, politics and Buddhadharma are mutually exclusive from the point of view of their ultimate objectives. It is true that basic political freedoms such as the freedom to practice the religion of your choice are necessary conditions for Dharma to survive. However, these conditions exist in many other countries around the world.
Mandala Magazine, interview with the Dalai Lama (July/Aug. 1995, p.9):
“The freedom of Tibet and the teachings of Buddhism have a strong relationship. They are strongly connected, because if Tibet is able to achieve true and authentic self-government, the Buddhadharma will be able to survive… If this doesn’t turn out to be possible then the teachings won’t survive.”
So why is the Dalai Lama making this ridiculous linkage of the survival of Tibet with the survival of Dharma? There can only be one reason, he is a political leader without a country. He craves the establishment of a geopolitical state from which he can operate, thus endowing himself with even greater control and influence.
Why does he insist on trying to be both a religious leader and a political leader? There can only be one reason, he is intoxicated with maintaining and increasing his power and control over others. His actions are all indicative of a desperate and egotistical ruler. In the final analysis, his mixing politics with Buddhism is a clear contradiction to, and mockery of Buddha’s teachings. Again, how can he be considered to be a Buddhist?
6) Destroying the meaning of Buddhist ordination
The basic motivation for ordination is the mind of renunciation. Renunciation when fully developed is a mind of complete non-attachment. Non-attachment is a wisdom that understands that external objects, (people, places, and things) do not cause our feelings.
It is the delusion of desirous attachment (the belief that certain external phenomena are the cause and source of our pleasant feelings) that binds us tightly to suffering.
In the late 1990’s the Dalai Lama appeared in an advertisement for Apple Computers in its “Think Different” campaign. Explicitly his action is telling us to develop desirous attachment for a computer. This is such an obvious and egregious violation of Buddha’s teachings. Implicitly it shows that it is acceptable for ordained people to prostitute themselves for the sake of consumerism and for the sake of samsara. In 1992 he appeared as a guest editor for the French Vogue fashion magazine. Again, what is the meaning of this action both explicitly and implicitly?
The Dalai Lama has often attended frivolous Hollywood parties and other celebrity driven events. He frequently meets with world leaders to discuss politics. He enjoys a lavish samsaric lifestyle. He always appears at these events wearing the robes of a monk.
These are not the actions of an authentic ordained Buddhist monk or Buddhist leader.
Conclusion
Far from showing the exemplary behavior of a religious leader, the Dalai Lama shows what it means to be a degenerate spiritual practitioner. In reality, his collective actions have the function of destroying Buddhism in this world. Therefore the Dalai Lama is not a Buddhist.
Ron Cook
Thank you Ron…from shugdenpa
wisdomjunkie // September 17, 2008 at 12:06 am |
This is why I’ve changed my name to wisdomjunkie. There are far too many Rons in the world. It goes without saying that not all of them have my approval.
shugdenpa // September 17, 2008 at 12:51 am |
I noticed Namdrol speaking up in this debate. Here’s an old post from Khyenrab in the 1990’s to which Namdrol never replied. It looks to me like this Namdrol has had about 10yrs to think about this so maybe he can post an answer now?
Otherwise he should stop his cyber attacks like the ones above. It is clear that because he has no answer to posts like these (that are telling the truth) he has stopped all debate on the E-Sangha website a long time ago – he only allows attacks of Shugden people.
Tenzin Peljor does exactly the same on his own blog – pretends to debate but actually does this only very selectively and ignores anything for which he has no proper answer.
I post this in its original format – I made a record of this at the time – but I’m sure you can search the “dejanews” etc and find the original if you like:
“Do Sakyas rely upon Dorje Shugden?
Hello Namdrol, here’s a few observations on some of your recent posts on the issue of whether or not some Sakyas rely on Dorje Shugden as an enlightened Protector of the Dharma.
You said:
>No Sakya Lama has ever taught that Shugden is enlightened >Protector. This is what Sakya Trizin says, and additionally, >what my teacher says, who was resident at Sakya Monastery >in Rajpur/Derhadun as the Secretary of the
>Sakya order between 1982-1989.
I asked a few people to lend their knowledge to this debate. Although I’m not quoting my sources I can tell you they’ve been in Tibetan Buddhism for up to 20 years, know many Lamas, lived in India, speak Tibetan etc. In other words, I take them as authoritative.
One of them told me the following:
“In his talk in 1978 the present Dalai Lama repeated as a ‘common story’ that a throne-holder of the Sakya tradition developed a connection with Dorje Shugden. I (that’s my friend) understand that this was the 17th century Dagchen Dorje Chang Sonam Rinchen. Sakya masters at that time
such as Sakya Dagchen Kunga Lodo (Sachen Kunlo) and Morchen Dorje Chang also wrote sadhanas which have been practised within the Sakya Tradition since then. Dorje Shugden, in particular in the aspect of riding a black horse, has been a Dharma Protector of the Sakya Tradition from that time until now.
Because of the pressure of the Dalai Lama’s government this practice has now been suppressed within the Sakya Tradition. However, according to one oracle of Dorje Shugden, Kuten Choyang Duldzin, many Sakya Lamas – including the father of the present Sakya Trizin – relied on Dorje Shugden and requested advice from the Dorje Shugden oracle, including
advice concerning the present Sakya Trizin.
Many people have stated that they have been present during Shugden pujas with Sakya Lamas including Sakya Trizin in the Sakya Temple in Mussourie, India. In Lo, Nepal, they do (or did) an annual Dorje Shugden dance, and according to eye-witness accounts Chogye Trichen the Teacher of both Sakya Rinpoche and the Dalai Lama, offers a katag to the dancer. The eye-witness account said the abbot of Lo Monastery told him that in Tibet, in Samye, they used to perform a dance with 32 dancers representing the 32 Deities of the Dorje Shugden Mandala plus dancers representing Pehar and Tsemara.
But nowadays they only have one dancer.”
So this is one account that differs from your view. Who should we believe?
Also you quoted from an old post by Losang last year where he said:
>”Even when I visited Geshe Kelsang’s nephew in the Sakya >monastery in Rajpur I found that they relied upon Dorje >Shugden as an enlightened Protector.”
In response to this you said:
>Nonsense. rTa.nag is not considered to be a enlightened protector by the Sakyapa, I ought to know, I studied in the Sakya tradition for eight years.
Namdrol, were your eight years prior to 1978 by any chance? How can you be certain that Sakya teachings since then haven’t undergone revision in light of the Dalai Lama’s view? How do you know written records eg sadhana booklets weren’t destroyed? And how can you be sure that you studied
everything in the Sakya tradition in those 8 years?
Again you quote:
>prayers and offerings to him which were in essence the >same as those offered to Mahakala who all schools believe to >be an enlightened being. I
Your response:
>How can you possibly know this? You don’t know Tibetan.
Sorry, Namdrol, but Losang does know Tibetan. Although I can’t
read that language I know of several Western Dorje Shugden practitioners who can read and speak it. And then there are Tibetan practitioners who can also read and speak English.
Again you quoted:
>aspect except that he was riding a horse. Perhaps it is only >when he rides a snow lion that he becomes harmfull! I was so >surprized when I later heard the Sakyapas saying that they >only gave Dorje Shugden cakes so that he would not get >angry with them. I notice on the Sakya calander that they no
>longer practice Dorje Shugden. If they truly believed he was >such a demonic being and feared him so much then why do >they not continue to appease him with cakes? I believe it is >the tibetan politicians that they fear more than Dorje >Shugden. His Holiness Sakya Trinzen spent a large part of his
>time at this monastery so surely he knows the real situation.”
And then you said:
>Yes, Sakya Trizin is my root Guru. He maintains that Shugden >is a) harmful b) mundane. The fact is that Shugden is deity >practice in Sakya mainly by the Khon family in Sakya >monastery proper. The Ngorpas and the Tharpas
>have never adopted this practice.
Perhaps I could put forward the following ideas here. There are 3 possible explanations:
1.You are lying
2. Sakya Trizin is lying
3. There are two ways of regarding Dorje Shugden in the Sakya lineage – openly and secretly.
Then as both you and Sakya Triz